solid billet roller cam and lifter life span question

[maca]

Hey guys,
Just a question on cam and lifters etc.
As some are aware as they have been helping me out here I am just about finished building my engine which has a solid billet roller cam.
Not a big cam, more of a street roller with 170 seat and 420 open pressures.
I was at the parts shop today picking up some stuff and chatting about my cam etc.
The parts guy said he wouldn't run a solid roller at all as he sells all the parts to the guys who run them and he reckons the solid roller lifters have a very short life. As little as 40 hours and on a street strip car there will not be enough oil splash that I will go through parts quickly especially if I cruise it at lower rpm.
I said it was a smaller street roller but he was quite sure it didn't matter.

For you guys who have run simular cams is this the case or simply not true.
Thanks

[Belgian1979]

This is a can of worms if you ask me. There has been a lot of debate as well.

The factory used roller followers, so imo there is nothing wrong with the concept of a roller per se. Imo it all boils down to either the way they are put to use in our performance blocks or the way the are mounted.
IMO those factors are :
- factory used longer lifter bores with longer lifters
- factory used lower spring forces
- factory ran hydraulic lifters where we usually use mechanical intended for higher rpm
- because of the higher rpm we use higher spring forces
- we use aftermarket heads with a different valve spacing that makes the rocker sit skewed towards the pushrod.

To combat some of the problems, I used :
- shaft rockers
- 86 up block with larger lifter bores
- revkit


Blackoutsteve on the forum here has a couple of threads about his adventures with this.

If you ask me most of the issues are related to lifters being loaded sideways, which causes the forces to act on one side of the lifter body. But others have other opinions and this has not been concluded in any way.

On the other hand, I've seen a lot of flat tappet cams from forummembers fail as well which is then attributed to the zinc in the oil.

[CamKing]

There's a reason the guy works behind the parts counter.
As long as you go with good roller lifters, with pressure-fed oiling to the needle bearings, there's no reason a cam that's mild enough to run those low spring pressures, can't last 100,000 miles.

[twl]

Some people would recommend using a rev lit with solid roller lifters, so that the lifter rollers stay in contact with the cam face.

[wyrmrider]

That's what Belgian1979 said
good advice IMHO

[user-612937456]

I would tend to think that the 40 hour figure is just to sensationalize the statement even if ti was a fact of the mater this is probably geared toward a strip only application where the 40 hour figure is timed at 11 seconds at a time at WOT If intention is for a street strip engine. It will obviously not be as long lasting as the Hydraulic roller version But I have known people to drive a solid roller on the street for years with no problem on the other hand I have seen quiet a few LS engines come into the shop with failed Hydraulic roller failures and some of them at decently low mileage. as long as you don't consistently do stoplight drag race maneuvers on a consistent basis I would think that you will be fine considering you are running a medium spring pressure. It might not beat the overall average lifetime of its Hydraulic brother but it will still probably have a decent lifespan and even if it is a dedicated strip only machine 40 hours is a ton of 11 second passes.

[PackardV8]

Here's a FWIW. A local guy believed he was hard core and life's too short not to run a solid roller cam. By the time his street engine was built and running, he'd been told so many horror stories about solid roller lifters dying early, he couldn't enjoy driving the car long distances because he was always listening for the death rattle. He changed to a hydraulic roller cam and kit and didn't notice a bit of difference in street performance through the mufflers and wasn't nearly so paranoid about lifter failure. Your opinions and results may differ.

[Belgian1979]

Here's a FWIW. A local guy believed he was hard core and life's too short not to run a solid roller cam. By the time his street engine was built and running, he'd been told so many horror stories about solid roller lifters dying early, he couldn't enjoy driving the car long distances because he was always listening for the death rattle. He changed to a hydraulic roller cam and kit and didn't notice a bit of difference in street performance through the mufflers and wasn't nearly so paranoid about lifter failure. Your opinions and results may differ.

Paranoia is a disease you know

[#84Dave]

Mike Jones has the experience, along with many others, but we're quickly finding out here that the relatively new Isky roller follower may be the way most will go. No needle bearings....... a solid bearing with pressure oil. We run the things 7600-7800 all day/night long in a SBC on short paved ovals. The Isky's still look like new............. at this point. -Dave-

[GOSFAST]

Hey guys,
Just a question on cam and lifters etc.
As some are aware as they have been helping me out here I am just about finished building my engine which has a solid billet roller cam.
Not a big cam, more of a street roller with 170 seat and 420 open pressures.
I was at the parts shop today picking up some stuff and chatting about my cam etc.
The parts guy said he wouldn't run a solid roller at all as he sells all the parts to the guys who run them and he reckons the solid roller lifters have a very short life. As little as 40 hours and on a street strip car there will not be enough oil splash that I will go through parts quickly especially if I cruise it at lower rpm.
I said it was a smaller street roller but he was quite sure it didn't matter.

For you guys who have run simular cams is this the case or simply not true.
Thanks

Hi mac, I didn't see what platform you have, but recently stripped a SBC 406" with 8 years on a set of Comps lifters, not a low-mileage driver, it was originally built as a street/strip deal. Mostly street but often at the track. It's a 3700#+ ride running 10.50's/126 on 93. Made over 575 HP dynoed. The very same build gets regular spring changes however.

I have many other very similar units out there with not a single issue to date.

Having said all that, it's going to come down to the platform involved. The SB's are much easier on parts due to the valve layout, when you switch to the BB platform the entire story changes. Here we now recommend the "bushed" rollers. Have recently used Comps new BB bushed line and so far am extremely happy. Even happier about the cost as well! Up till now we've used the Isky's, also worked out well, but more costly.

We set up most cams to use the stock G.M distributor gear, modify the oiling down to those gears, and have the customers pay close attention to lash/spring pressures. With this type setup you'll be fine!

I would like to see some slightly "stiffer" springs on "billet" cams than what you show above? On a side note, avoid mech-rollers on any "cast" blanks.

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. I have no issues still today using Comp's "conventional" rollers on the SBC platform but am somewhat leery of any brand anymore on the BB's. Moreso after becoming involved with the Drag-Week shows.

[needforspeed66gt]

Dozens of road race, alcohol modified, super production, extreme marine, etc motors running crane solid rollers and old style needle bearing Isky lifters with the aluminum hat for use with a rev kit, 40-50 hours of use and then torn down and freshened up with a kiss hone, valve job, springs, etc...these lifters have been used sometimes five iterations of the motor and they keep on going, IMO if you keep on top of spring maintenance and use a rev-kit to keep the lifter on the lobe they can last a very long time, if you lose valve control you're going to destroy parts and blame the lifter.

[F-BIRD'88]

A few things that matter and make a difference.

1. Use a "street roller" cam. Not a race roller. The lift rate and spring pressure is way too high on race stuff
to get a long street service life.

2. Set the lash on the tight side. This ensure that the lifter meets the cam lobe when on the "lash ramp" as opposed to the opening closeing flank where forces are MUCH higher.

Typical speced Cam card "hot lash" tens to be on or near the END of the lash ramp.
This requires more attention to the lash setting than setting the lash tigher and deeper on the lash ramp.

Setting the lash tighter maintains the lash point on the easy part of the cam lobe.

Cold lash hot lash. A engine expands when it heats up, while running.
This causes the valve lash to increase from COld to HOT.
So on your cam set the lash COLD tighter than the hot spec.
recomend .006" tighter than the hot spec. On your cam that means set it at .010" in .012" ex COLD.
Watch the lash. If it changes by more than say .008" from last check FIND out WHY.

I have friends here that one has over 20 years on 1 set of solid rollers on a Magnum cam.
(Just changed them this year, after 20 years service)
Another friend has now 5 years street service on a Extreme energy solid roller.
( he does the lash MY WAY.)

Both are big block chevs...
You should inspect your roller lifters once a year or once every two years.
Roller bearings DO NOT LAST FOREVER. (higher Pressure and shock load (improper loose lash)
will shorten the service life, just as it would a flat tappet high perf cam with high perf springs.

Most people set the valve lash too loose. Most are all afraid to set it different than the cam card.
Then when they do set it THEY SET IT TOO LOOSE.
This results in excessive force and shock on the tappet from excessive lash.
Remember the lash INCREASES as the motor warms up.

Setting the lash on the tight side WILL NOT DAMAGE the engine and WILL extend the
lash service time window and extend the roller tappet service life on your street motor.

Do not use race only parts on a street motor. And expect a long service life.

If your Magnum motor still has a ongoing cam oiling problem as shown in your posts that you have not fixed. ALL BETS ARE OFF.
It won't matter what cam is in it without oil flow to the lifters.

[1989TransAm]

There are Low Lash Solid Rollers designed for the street. The lobes are designed for a tight lash and street use. On a motor with an aluminum block and heads they set the lash to zero when cold. It will then expand to around .008" when up to operating temperature. For a motor with an iron block and aluminum heads you would set the cold lash to around .004" cold.

You may have to recheck the lash after the motor has some time on it and the parts wear in. After that you can go a long time before having to set the lash again. We are talking spring rates like the OP posted.

[maca]

Thanks for the input guys, Its much appreciated. This is my 1st solid roller cam
I will double check my lifters (comp 8043-16) that they oil the needle bearings and I will also look to see if there is a better lifter I can use. Maybe ISKY or Comps new BB bushed if they make them for my engine.
I will also run the tighter lash settings as suggested and I will Google what a rev-kit is.
The spring pressures I have set up so far were suggested on this site and also suggested by comp cams so that's why I have used them. Cam is below
Hey F-Bird, you said (Use a "street roller" cam. Not a race roller) Makes good sense. How do I tell which one mine is?
I understand where your coming from. 40 hours is a long time when doing 10 second passes. Never thought of it like that

With my past hydraulic lifter pump up issues I have put the block into the shop and they have stripped it and cleaned all the oil passages. They went over the block and said they cant find any problems and would be happy to use it themselves. I also changed the oil pump and baffled the sump. When running it before there were no signs of oil foaming so I don't think there is anything else I can do apart from reassemble now. If there is any other oil checks I can do please let me know.
cheers
cam
http://s1081.photobucket.com/user/maca1 ... 6.jpg.html?
engine, 360 magnum, vortech, ally edelbrock heads.

[F-BIRD'88]

If the cam you posted about , is what you say it is, it is a "Street roller cam"

The lobes appear to be the same as the off the shelf Comp extreme energy solid roller cams.
These searies of cam lobes work really good on street and street strip motors.
The cam- valve lift rate and required springs are relatively mild in roller cam terms.
They are not race cams and they are not designed or intended for 8000rpm. (with those relatively mild springs)
Keep the rpm under 7200. Keep the lash on the tight side.
$1000 Isky bushing bearing lifters will not make a difference. its either going to run or it won't.
These street roller cams are not hard on the standard roller lifters.

THE KEY is CORRECT lash. Correct install, periodic lash maintenance (not every day)
and periodic lifter wheel roller bearing inspection. (if they look any way shabby replace the set) Do not rev it up 8000rpm. Lifter valve train CRASH is real hard on any lifter.
Most roller lifters are rebuildable.

A rev kit may help some. Probabily require custom made stuff for that motor.

Again most of the issues on street motors is attempting to run race only stuff on the street
and incorrect loose valve lash.

Cold lash Hot lash difference:
With your aluminum heads you may need even tighter COLD valve lash like .008"-.010" COLD.
Remember you want to end up with the HOT lash on the tight side when all done and hot and running. "Hot" means take it out and drive it HOT.
(If you are going to bother to actually check the HOT lash)
I set the valve lash COLD. I ALWAYS set the valve lash (AT LEAST) a bit tighter than the cam card
hot lash spec. I recommend you do the same.

When the lash is done right on these street cams the valve train is relatively quiet at idle.
It has a mild quiet mechanical lifter sound. I have heard many hyd cammed motors that are much louder at idle. if the valve train is noisy at idle beyond a cool sounding mild solid lifter street cammed motor sound it is not right. Fix it.
Loud valve train noise indicates harsh valve action and or sloppy roller bearings in the lifters or rockers which will kill any lifter and rockers too.

Some steel roller rockers seem to be noisy as hell . Not sure why.