Aluminium vs Steel rods

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

Moderator: Team

DrillDawg
Expert
Expert
Posts: 980
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:03 am
Location:

Re: Aluminium vs Steel rods

Post by DrillDawg »

Just make sure that the Ti. big ends are coated, as Ti. does not like to rub Ti.
BORN RIGHT THE FIRST TIME
Steve.k
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1562
Joined: Sat May 28, 2016 10:41 am
Location:

Re: Aluminium vs Steel rods

Post by Steve.k »

That is interesting for sure. Good friend of mine runs ti in his 979 cube motor.
Steve.k
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1562
Joined: Sat May 28, 2016 10:41 am
Location:

Re: Aluminium vs Steel rods

Post by Steve.k »

He swears by titanium and nothing but. Holds the worlds quickest natural aspirated title. Engine by Ron Miller.
swampbuggy
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1575
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:54 pm
Location: central Florida

Re: Aluminium vs Steel rods

Post by swampbuggy »

DrillDawg, you are correct in saying that Titanium rods MAY gall on their side surfaces where they touch each other between the two rods. GM run into problems with their Titanium rods in the High Output LS engines employed in some of the Corvettes. Mark H. , BTW never heard what they did to fix the problem, anybody know ????
engineguyBill
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1264
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:15 am
Location: Gold Canyon, AZ

Re: Aluminium vs Steel rods

Post by engineguyBill »

I believe that GM and others are using various cryogenic treatment processes on Titanium materials. These processes are used extensively in the aerospace and aircraft industries. Am also guessing that rod manufacturers such as Oliver, Crower, etc, are using this treatment/process on their Ti rods as well.
Bill

Perfect Circle Doctor of Motors certification
SAE Member (30 years)
ASE Master Certified Engine Machinist (+ two otherASE Master Certifications)
AERA Certified Professional Engine Machinist
DrillDawg
Expert
Expert
Posts: 980
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:03 am
Location:

Re: Aluminium vs Steel rods

Post by DrillDawg »

Arrow Precision titanium connecting rods are coated with Chromium Nitride (CrN) applied by the physical vapour deposition (PVD) process.

The CrN coating produces a thin, wear resistant layer on the working surfaces of the rod that significantly increases the component life when compared to an uncoated part by providing a hard wearing layer between the rod and its neighbouring components.
BORN RIGHT THE FIRST TIME
stealth
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1391
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2006 9:37 am
Location:

Re: Aluminium vs Steel rods

Post by stealth »

pdq67 wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:14 pm
Warp Speed wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:09 am
swampbuggy wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:45 am Warpspeed....does "anybody" know the molecular makeup of a NASCAR Pankl connecting rod ??? And is the MIN. rod journal diameter 1.850" ??? thanks Mark H. A.K.A. Swampbuggy. :D
Yes, minimum is 1.1850 rod pin.
No, the material is prepriatory to Pankl, they keep it very secret.
Well then, I have $10 to help anybody that will send a Pankl rod off to a materials Lab. for alloy checking if anybody that has a spare one wants to do it?

I have a sneaking suspension that they are made out of a slightly modified alloy of 300M!! Like I said earlier, there's only a handful off steel alloys that are better than 300M for rods and such.. GM did their homework back then when they came up with 300M and the dammed stuff is relatively cheap AND, "tough as REBAR"!!!

pdq67
Here ..get these checked out...
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
stealth
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1391
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2006 9:37 am
Location:

Re: Aluminium vs Steel rods

Post by stealth »

Okay...just to bring back some history on engine parts and their materials progress though-out time

Valve spring retainers are a good example and compare nicely to connecting rods and material selection..

Pre 70’s. Steel
1970-80’s aluminum was the ticket
1990-2000’s. Titanium
2010... Steel (back to steel..of course better alloy)

Just food for thought...
engineguyBill
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1264
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:15 am
Location: Gold Canyon, AZ

Re: Aluminium vs Steel rods

Post by engineguyBill »

stealth wrote: Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:01 pm Okay...just to bring back some history on engine parts and their materials progress though-out time

Valve spring retainers are a good example and compare nicely to connecting rods and material selection..

Pre 70’s. Steel
1970-80’s aluminum was the ticket
1990-2000’s. Titanium
2010... Steel (back to steel..of course better alloy)

Just food for thought...
Actually, aluminum valve spring retainers date back to the 60's and were very popular at the time (even with the tell-tale silver specks under the valve covers and in the oil). I think you will find that Titanium retainers are still used quite extensively to this day . . . . . . . . . . Not all engine combinations "need" Titanium retainers, therefore there is no reason to spend the extra bucks for them.
Bill

Perfect Circle Doctor of Motors certification
SAE Member (30 years)
ASE Master Certified Engine Machinist (+ two otherASE Master Certifications)
AERA Certified Professional Engine Machinist
DCal
Expert
Expert
Posts: 769
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:37 am
Location: mooresville nc

Re: Aluminium vs Steel rods

Post by DCal »

engineguyBill wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:57 pm Yes, Pankl is the 'P' in CP (Calvert Pankl) which was established in the late 90's and bought CARRILLO in 2003 or so. Pankl is one of the largest conglomerates in Europe, headquartered in Austria and is one of the largest employers in that country. Pankl builds military equipment, such as helicopters, so they do have access to all sorts of propiotary materials and manufacturing processes.
Hi Bill. Its been interesting having both the CEO and President of CP-Carrillo at my house for the last 4 or 5 day. Every nite we check this post to see what the experts say. I think CP purchased Carrillo in 2008 but I'll ask Snake in a bit.
Steve.k
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1562
Joined: Sat May 28, 2016 10:41 am
Location:

Re: Aluminium vs Steel rods

Post by Steve.k »

Carrillo also sells alloy rods. Put them on , would be interesting to here there story!!
User avatar
MadBill
Guru
Guru
Posts: 15024
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:41 am
Location: The Great White North

Re: Aluminium vs Steel rods

Post by MadBill »

engineguyBill wrote: Sun Aug 05, 2018 2:52 pm . . . . . . . Not all engine combinations "need" Titanium retainers, therefore there is no reason to spend the extra bucks for them.
And for that matter, the very best (and equally expensive) tool steel retainers weigh within a couple of grams of Ti and don't get et up by the damper coils...
Felix, qui potuit rerum cognscere causas.

Happy is he who can discover the cause of things.
Kevin Johnson
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 9365
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:41 am
Location:

Re: Aluminium vs Steel rods

Post by Kevin Johnson »

Here is the patent class for Means For Molding Powdered Metal: https://patents.justia.com/patents-by-u ... ion/425/78

I have not looked through numerous patents but am speculating that pre-green-pressing means exist to vary incrementally by layer the composition of the powders from the outer morphology through to whatever core depth is chosen. Some such patents may not be accessible/visible due to security concerns.
Driving Force Online: BREAKING NEWS—Ohio Governor Signs SEMA-Supported Vehicle Freedom Bill Into Law!
Kevin Johnson
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 9365
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:41 am
Location:

Re: Aluminium vs Steel rods

Post by Kevin Johnson »

Kevin Johnson wrote: Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:53 pm Here is the patent class for Means For Molding Powdered Metal: https://patents.justia.com/patents-by-u ... ion/425/78

I have not looked through numerous patents but am speculating that pre-green-pressing means exist to vary incrementally by layer the composition of the powders from the outer morphology through to whatever core depth is chosen. Some such patents may not be accessible/visible due to security concerns.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US201 ... en#citedBy

The reason I posted here rather than the other powdered metal rod thread is the mention of Titanium and it reminded me of the sinter-forged Ti rods made by GKN for Porsche many moons ago.
Driving Force Online: BREAKING NEWS—Ohio Governor Signs SEMA-Supported Vehicle Freedom Bill Into Law!
engineguyBill
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1264
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:15 am
Location: Gold Canyon, AZ

Re: Aluminium vs Steel rods

Post by engineguyBill »

DCal wrote: Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:47 pm

Hi Bill. Its been interesting having both the CEO and President of CP-Carrillo at my house for the last 4 or 5 day. Every nite we check this post to see what the experts say. I think CP purchased Carrillo in 2008 but I'll ask Snake in a bit.
Hi Dave,
Say hello to Barry and Snake for me.
Bill

Perfect Circle Doctor of Motors certification
SAE Member (30 years)
ASE Master Certified Engine Machinist (+ two otherASE Master Certifications)
AERA Certified Professional Engine Machinist
Post Reply