Cylinder honing

[BigBro74]

Let me ask a couple questions- maybe it is silly- when you measured initially, was that with or without the torque plate on?

Did they use a plate at the shop where they did the .030” overbore? Y/n?
If not, could that explain the condition and or the measurements you have? Just thoughts-

have fun honing- it will work great.
Just get them very clean...... that hone grit is gonna be in there!

[modok]

The shop owner has a CK10 and a CV616 and got schooled by a couple of guys with a hand hone.

YEP, can happen

[Jaredb1]

Let me ask a couple questions- maybe it is silly- when you measured initially, was that with or without the torque plate on?

Did they use a plate at the shop where they did the .030” overbore? Y/n?
If not, could that explain the condition and or the measurements you have? Just thoughts-

have fun honing- it will work great.
Just get them very clean...... that hone grit is gonna be in there!

I initially measured without torque plate. The numbers weren't great. I had no idea if the shop had used a torque plate or not, so I thought that if they had that would explain the numbers. So I put a head and head gasket back on one side and mapped the cylinders from the bottom. The numbers looked worse, but it was hard to tell measuring from the bottom like that. I got a torque plate so I could measure it properly and confirm what I was seeing.
With the torque plate installed I had most of the cylinders out of round by 1/2 to 1 thou. That was measuring an 1 1/2" down the bore parallel and perpendicular to piston pin orientation. If I measured diagonal from head bolt to head bolt they were .001" larger on the best one and .002 on the worst one, everything else was in between those numbers. By this point I had figured a torque plate was not used originally. At this point I decided to order the hone. I was tired of dealing with people, I was gonna straighten this out myself.
On the first cylinder I honed, after a few strokes it showed an egg shaped area directly under each head bolt that the stones weren't touching. Those areas were roughly an 1"x3/4" oval. It took almost .003" material removal before those dark areas came out. At this point I felt it was too much for a skirt coating to correct the clearances. If they all cleaned up at the same dimension I would need .006"-.007" coating to get the correct clearance. That's when I decided I would try and take it to .040 over.

[Newold1]

My recommendation in a case like this would be to go to Mopar ProShop and buy the 408 Mopar small block 465HP crate engine directly from Mopar and be done with it.

[Keith Morganstein]

I had a few questions regarding honing cylinders.
<snip>
With 7 cylinders left to do I am looking to speed up the process.
Will 80 grit or 150 grit stones cut a lot faster?
Will honing dry cut faster?
Do I need to worry about cross hatch pattern with every grit of stone or just my finish grit?
How much material should I leave for the finish hone?
Thanks

Yes, 80 grit will be faster

Dry may be faster than squirting oil on the cylinders (vs constant oil flooding)

To hone dry with the Lisle, start with new stones and felts. (Once oiled, they can’t be used dry) Use a vacuum for dust collection!!!
The stones will load up after a while and begin polishing, remove the hone and use the Lisle supplied brush to clean then stones and felts (brush lengthwise) and resume honing.

Practice proper crosshatch all the way through, while not critical when roughing, it will get you used to it.

You can go to .001” of desired size with the coarse stone. However, if you are chasing taper with the rough stones, change to medium sooner. Use medium to a couple of tenths and then fine to size.

Are you using the supplied spring and some type of stop to make honing easier? You can also hone with the block on its side (horizontal honing) esp if honing dry.

[Charliesauto]

Let me ask a couple questions- maybe it is silly- when you measured initially, was that with or without the torque plate on?

Did they use a plate at the shop where they did the .030” overbore? Y/n?
If not, could that explain the condition and or the measurements you have? Just thoughts-

have fun honing- it will work great.
Just get them very clean...... that hone grit is gonna be in there!

I initially measured without torque plate. The numbers weren't great. I had no idea if the shop had used a torque plate or not, so I thought that if they had that would explain the numbers. So I put a head and head gasket back on one side and mapped the cylinders from the bottom. The numbers looked worse, but it was hard to tell measuring from the bottom like that. I got a torque plate so I could measure it properly and confirm what I was seeing.
With the torque plate installed I had most of the cylinders out of round by 1/2 to 1 thou. That was measuring an 1 1/2" down the bore parallel and perpendicular to piston pin orientation. If I measured diagonal from head bolt to head bolt they were .001" larger on the best one and .002 on the worst one, everything else was in between those numbers. By this point I had figured a torque plate was not used originally. At this point I decided to order the hone. I was tired of dealing with people, I was gonna straighten this out myself.
On the first cylinder I honed, after a few strokes it showed an egg shaped area directly under each head bolt that the stones weren't touching. Those areas were roughly an 1"x3/4" oval. It took almost .003" material removal before those dark areas came out. At this point I felt it was too much for a skirt coating to correct the clearances. If they all cleaned up at the same dimension I would need .006"-.007" coating to get the correct clearance. That's when I decided I would try and take it to .040 over.

Do you have the main caps on and torqued?

[Jaredb1]

I have the main caps on and torqued. I am running the drill on a variable frequency motor controller. It gives me really good speed control. I am using a stop that I made up myself for the hone. I got a lot done last night on it. Course and medium stones dry were the ticket. I pretty much followed Keith''s advice to the letter. I have one that I left .0025 in after the medI'm stones. I stopped on it because I am chasing a little taper on it. About .0005. What is an acceptable tolerance for taper? That one is being really stubborn. I might cut some stones down to try and work it out. Or flip the block over and try and get at it from the botton.

[Newold1]

Those here saying most crate engines are junk are misinformed and spouting non-factual statements. GMHPP, Ford Racing and Mopar Performance have sold litterally hundreds of thousands of crate engines over the last 20 years and the huge large percentage are well done and have worked beautifully in hundreds of thousands of cars, both race and street. I would bet that their percentage of successful builds out of the crate are most likely better than even all the aftermarket performance engine shops and builders. No one builds perfect engines even the OEMs. Even the best big shops and builders even small non-special builders like myself have failures. If you don't, your not on this planet!

[Keith Morganstein]

I have the main caps on and torqued. I am running the drill on a variable frequency motor controller. It gives me really good speed control. I am using a stop that I made up myself for the hone. I got a lot done last night on it. Course and medium stones dry were the ticket. I pretty much followed Keith''s advice to the letter. I have one that I left .0025 in after the medI'm stones. I stopped on it because I am chasing a little taper on it. About .0005. What is an acceptable tolerance for taper? That one is being really stubborn. I might cut some stones down to try and work it out. Or flip the block over and try and get at it from the botton.

If you can get to .0002” taper and round, I’d call it good. It can be done hand honing.
.0005” is the most, and really only if you are in danger of going too big by honing more.
With .0025” to go, try going back to coarse. I’m sure you been dwelling in the small area to get the results you have so far.
Try a different rhythm such as five dwell strokes to one full stroke to see if you straighten out the taper. Also, If you can overstroke a little more without crashing the hone, try that. Also stone pressure, a bit lighter is generally better for “rounding” things up.
Sometimes shortened stones will help.
Flipping may help, especially if the stones are starting to wear at a taper, I don’t flip on blocks, but I do on other honing tasks. The Lisle should have come with a dressing stick to shape up the stones.

[ProPower engines]

I see from reading the whole thread you are a rookie at engine machining procedures and I get the reason you want to do as much as you can to save some $$$ but lets look at how this can happen starting with the heads.

I use alot of the EQ heads for Mopars and do at least 1-2 408 builds a month and I have seen your issues from shops that should know better as well as guys that buy heads and stainless valves and just assemble the heads believing they are ready to assemble a fully machined pair of heads. That in itself is 1 of the biggest mistakes you can make.

1st off stainless valves will gall and stick in cast guides as they do not have hard chromed stems even if they are reamed
to the right size. its some thing between the EQ and dart castings basic stainless valves do not like. So they gall.
The fix and correct way to deal with the issue is to install bronze guides and fit them to the stems of the valves to
be used. This is after the stems are checked for size and run out. the 8mm stems I go no more then .0002 on run out
or taper top to bottom and if your are running a roller then +.100 long valves are needed to get enough valve spring.

the rest of the head still needs to be surfaced cause they are never straight. And they should be cc checked cause
the chambers are not what they claim. I am doing a set of their magnum with LA intake pattern and they are 5cc's larger
then advertised and I say again unless you do this every day you would not know that.

Honing the block is an art all by itself. I have hand honed 1000's of blocks when I was just learning this stuff in the shop
and yeah the apprentice gets that job.
Regardless the correct bore finish is so important because if its too rough and the cross hatch is too steep it will wear out the 2nd ring which is the oil control ring for the top ring the 3rd ring just keeps the extra oil off the bore but contrary to belief the 2nd ring in your case is not a compression ring.

The mahle 2810 pistons you started with are a lot more noisy then the 4032 alloy pistons and the 4032 pistons can
be run much tighter. I have use .003" clearance on the current 408 I am doing this week and they get quiet in about
5 minutes of run time. But the rings that can come with the pistons also have a napier 2nd ring option as well as
a reverse taper face for the 2nd ring. Which did you have??
Regardless they need a plateau finish to seat right away. The 1.5 1.5 3mm ring pak that is common with the mahle
pistons are a good ring choice. There is better options but for most street stuff with no power adders they are great!!

Personally I never hone a block out to final bore size of say .030 with out boring it parallel to the main line to ensure
the pistons are not being asked to run on an angle front to rear. Some say it can be done and I agree to a point that
you are still relying on the original factory machining and they are not always close enough as it is like honing a funnel.

You can get it round but is it parallel to the crank. Most shops I see that have issues with oil consumption after a short run period is the use of the wrong bore finish and it tears up the rings creating oil burning issues and blow by.
Them Mopar's need to be finish honed with a torque plate installed. But just telling a shop to bore a block is taking a chance because if you can't confirm what size the pistons really are and the required clearance its a gamble as most
shops I have seen with issues do not give the block enough cool down time between steps and try to get it all done
as fast as possible to get to the next block because most guys do not have the measuring tools needed to check
the work is right as you asked them to do. Most just wash and assemble. With the amount of taper you mentioned you have after only 6-7000 miles of use I see guys that have run 3-4 straight seasons before a freshen up and not have more then .0005" to.001" wear on the bores. chances are they made a mistake when it was 1st honed.

Bottom line is if you how you want it and can check the work when received back from the shop great. If not you have to be sure its correct. As for the ring finish on the bore if you can catch your finger nail on the cross hatch then its too rough for the rings that come with the amahle pistons.

[Newold1]

ProPower

Thank you for explaining in detail what I was talking about in my earlier post. The expertise it takes to properly machine and carefully measure and assemble a performance short block is not an easy DIY project as many enthusiasts seem to think. If it was easy, anybody could do it. It's not and it takes good knowledge, machining on good machining centers and proper selection of the right parts to end up with a great performance short block. A lot of the posts on this site are questions many times being asked about "What went Wrong?" and a lot of conversation on these posts is trying to school the DIY persons on procedures and methods that take many professionals years to learn and perfect. Not saying it can't be done but I for one when I am in a doctors office getting serious medical care I am not thinking about going home and trying medical procedures on myself in an effort to save money or try doing something that would be "cool"! Sure there are "quack" doctors, so find a good one. Sure there are "quack" machine shops so find a good one.
Make your life and accomplishments successful, know your limitations and spend your time and money accomplishing things well that you are really good at and leave things you are not great at to others who are! JMO

[Jaredb1]

ProPower

Thank you for explaining in detail what I was talking about in my earlier post. The expertise it takes to properly machine and carefully measure and assemble a performance short block is not an easy DIY project as many enthusiasts seem to think. If it was easy, anybody could do it. It's not and it takes good knowledge, machining on good machining centers and proper selection of the right parts to end up with a great performance short block. A lot of the posts on this site are questions many times being asked about "What went Wrong?" and a lot of conversation on these posts is trying to school the DIY persons on procedures and methods that take many professionals years to learn and perfect. Not saying it can't be done but I for one when I am in a doctors office getting serious medical care I am not thinking about going home and trying medical procedures on myself in an effort to save money or try doing something that would be "cool"! Sure there are "quack" doctors, so find a good one. Sure there are "quack" machine shops so find a good one.
Make your life and accomplishments successful, know your limitations and spend your time and money accomplishing things well that you are really good at and leave things you are not great at to others who are! JMO

Newold,
I appreciate your comments. Your advice is safe. It is sound.
I have no delusions about what I am doing. I know I am setting myself up for low odds of success. In my case it isn't really about money.it's about stubborness.

As far as DiY's go, I will tell you a story. Back in the 90's I built a 383 bb for the duster. It wasn't super powerful. (Back then I thought it was )It ran mid 12''s in the quarter. I had about 50 passes or so on it and the suregrip differential failed. I had the type with cones in it. No clutches. They were considered disposable, non repairable. With my background I found it hard to believe that anything mechanical is considered unrepairable. I took it apart and really studied it. Once I figured out how it was supposed to work I was able to determine why it wasn't working. I took the the cones to work, made a fixture to chuck them in the lathe and remachined them. I retired that differential about five years ago. I had gotten the car into the mid 10''s and was afraid I would break it. My point isn't about the success of that rearend, it's about the fact that if I had left it to "those who know" I wouldn't have gotten the experience to be able to build rears for my racing buddies. Same thing goes for transmissions and engines. There's an old saying "everyone has to start somewhere". Hotrodding and racing was built on the backs of DIY's. If everyone left it to those who know, mankind would still live in caves.
I know that what I am doing is not a typical DIY project. I knew some would offer tips on what I was doing and others would point out my fallacy. Both types of comments are warranted and appreciated.
Some DiY's do things because of budget. Some do it to learn, and some do it for pride. I will keep everyone updated on progress and results.

[modok]

i expect...telling you NOT to do it, because it's "too difficult" or whatever.... will have the opposite effect.

We're all the same way. Right? We're here aren't we?

I'm not sure if they one or two guys telling you NOT to do it...... are that way, or not, but they might be.

so, good luck

[Dave Koehler]

chuckle.
Would any of us have taken the leap if the internet was around back then?

[jake197000]

practice on an old block how you gonna learn if you dont try it