So electric may just be a passing fad again

Anything to do with the electric or hybrid world

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Newold1
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Re: So electric may just be a passing fad again

Post by Newold1 »

Please post some links to these studies that show EV's pollute more than fuel burning IVC's. I have not seen or read any but I don't red everything that is written.
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gunt
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Re: So electric may just be a passing fad again

Post by gunt »

i'd have to dig out the program, but its mainly about the production and end of life , also depending on the country how its powering the electricity , coal nuclear , wind what ever . but we all know lithium ion batteries cannot be recycled , then combine this with the 150000mile life , dosent add up
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Re: So electric may just be a passing fad again

Post by Brian P »

Recycling of lithium batteries is a well-known issue. It is being worked on, and it will come. Right now it's not economically viable, but once these vehicles are out there in large numbers, that will change the economics.

Just because it isn't done today, doesn't mean it can't be done or won't ever happen.
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Re: So electric may just be a passing fad again

Post by Brian P »

Let''s touch on some ROUGH efficiency numbers to give this a "smell test".

Suppose you start with a fossil fuel that in either case has been taken out of the ground and had whatever processing and transporting done assuming that's the same in both cases. Now let's put together some rough efficiencies.

Combustion engine: At best this is 40% efficient. In real world driving it's closer to 15% - 20%, and it's 0% when idling. Something with a hybrid powertrain and which stops its engine when it isn't needed might do a little better, something "traditional" with an oversized engine might be worse. Then there's a transmission that is perhaps 90% efficient. (It's 0% efficient when sitting stopped in traffic.) Tank to wheels? 15% - 20% efficient.

EV: A state of the art natural gas fired combined-cycle plant is around 60% efficient fuel-to-electricity. A coal-fired plant is around 40%. Let's use that number for the heck of it. Let's assume NO modern natural-gas combined-cycle plants. Let's assume NO nuclear and NO hydroelectric. Just coal, at 40% efficient from fuel to electricity. Distribution network 90%, now we are at 36%. Charge-discharge of the battery, let's take that at 90%, it's in that ballpark, now we are at around 32%. Inverter and motor, around 85%, now we are at 27.5% efficient from the fuel to the wheels of the vehicle. There is no transmission - there will be a simple gear reducer whose internal losses can be neglected for what we are talking about here.

The EV will be heavier than a comparable combustion-engine vehicle. But on the other hand ... the EV will have regenerative braking which is only available with a full-hybrid combustion-engine vehicle (Prius, etc). Let's say those wipe each other out.

So the EV has quite a bit higher thermal efficiency than the combustion-engine vehicle taking into account the efficiency of the central power station.

Coal emits more CO2 per useful energy content than hydrocarbon fuels. https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=73&t=11 It's around 30% higher, which offsets part of that efficiency gain. Roughly speaking, if the grid is supplied by 100% coal, the EV described above will have CO2 emissions during operation about 20%-30% below what a comparable combustion-engine vehicle would have. (That's not far from what other sources have stated.) The CO2 emissions during the vehicle's life dominate over those associated with its manufacturing.

If the grid supply is not 100% coal (which is the worst-case condition) and is instead a more realistic blend of natural gas, hydroelectric, and nuclear then the EV gets a CO2 emissions advantage that no combustion-engine vehicle could ever overcome.

The province where I live (Ontario) as of a couple years ago gets about 58% of its electricity from nuclear, about 23% from hydroelectric, about 10% from natural gas, and about 9% from a mixture of renewable sources, and none from coal. An EV fed from the Ontario grid - or the Quebec grid, which is mostly fed from hydroelectric - has very low indirect CO2 emissions during operation.
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Re: So electric may just be a passing fad again

Post by GRTfast »

Kevin Johnson wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:11 pm
gunt wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:05 pm ... so if one plane crash ended it all , lots could end this
Unfortunately, objective discourse is being abandoned for ideologically based narratives.
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Re: So electric may just be a passing fad again

Post by gmrocket »

Newold1 wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:28 pm As I said I believe as many others that EV's will outnumber IC vehicles by 2030 not 2040 and I think the ratio will be close to 70/30 by then.

Gunt, there are many like your self who will stay in an IC vehicle until they put you in a box and throw dirt on top of you. So be it. If you have a lot of people at your funeral, I suspect most of them will have driven there in their EV's. :lol:
That's a shocking prediction... so in ten short years that's going to happen?

Are you thinking it will be forced on everyone by government? Even that I doubt will happen in that time frame

And I drive a hybrid, it's not a realistic vehicle in very cold weather,,or hot for that matter. The gas engine runs continuously

Or hilly places...

Flat land that has very little temp swings is ideal 🤣
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Re: So electric may just be a passing fad again

Post by gmrocket »

There are some funny videos online of tesla owners being absolutely fine with losing 50% to 60% range in cold weather..

And they are also fine with preheating the car &battery pack for 1 hour before even getting in it to drive. They say that's best because when it's still plugged in, the power to heat the battery pack (so it will actually have enough power to drive) will be coming from the grid, not the battery itself

So an hour each time before driving, and a loss of about 55% range when driving because your sucking power to heat the interior, defrost front window with heated air and rear wire in window defroster.

So immediately after stopping and leaving it parked, you should plug it in, because you are at a reduced range, and the battery also needs to keep warm...but if you are out shopping and parked in a lot that has no plug in... you are forced to mingle park with the dirty disgusting fossil fuel cars... the low life , or poor people .. I think that's the worst part. Knowing your in the mall worried sick with range anxiety, while all the fossil fuel people are shopping without a care in the world.

You might get back home, in limp mode. If you don't use heat, wear your gloves and use a scraper on the windshield so you can see where your going

Gotta go straight home and plug in...even though your friends have called to nvite you over for dinner and drinks ...it's just 5 miles to their place, but they don't have a place where you can plug in. It's shameful friends don't have a place to plug in your car to juice it up.

No such thing as change your plans driving a tesla in the winter, it's a strict regiment of planning your day around your cars range

Whenever I'm low on gas ,, in my fossil fuel rig.. friends always say, come over anyway... we have some gasoline here we can lend you to get back home
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Re: So electric may just be a passing fad again

Post by gruntguru »

Sounds like those who live in cold climates will have to stick with oil-burning transportation. Or you could move to somewhere with sane temperatures. Or just wait 'til global warming kicks in.
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Re: So electric may just be a passing fad again

Post by enigma57 »

Image

Oh, dear!
gmrocket
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Re: So electric may just be a passing fad again

Post by gmrocket »

gruntguru wrote: Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:43 pm Sounds like those who live in cold climates will have to stick with oil-burning transportation. Or you could move to somewhere with sane temperatures. Or just wait 'til global warming kicks in.
In the hot climates it not much better. Having to run the A/C all the time kills the range.

I live in Ontario Canada.. winter is brutal on my hybrid. Summer isn't any better

The battery pack overheats unless the A/C is on.

It has dual A/C evaporators, the regular one for cabin occupants and a second one for the battery pack..that suck energy.

Right now today, here it's 41C with the humidity..which means the A/C will be on steady..even when the A/C isn't on, there is a good sized fan that brings air into the battery pack to cool it.

Like I said,, areas that are flat with tempid year round temps is the best place for them
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Re: So electric may just be a passing fad again

Post by gmrocket »

Tesla owners in northern areas are saying it can be as much as 50% range loss in the cold.

Even more if your preheating while it's not plugged in..

So it's best to plug in during pre heat so you can get free heat from the unicorn power plant

That's if you can even get in the car..lots of videos online of the door handles not popping out in the cold, or if they do, the windows don't go down so you can open the door...now that's the best way to save on your range distance! Hahahha
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Re: So electric may just be a passing fad again

Post by peejay »

gmrocket wrote: Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:22 am There are some funny videos online of tesla owners being absolutely fine with losing 50% to 60% range in cold weather..

And my T-bird went from 17-18mpg to 2mpg in the winter. Giving it a range of about 30 miles. What is the point you are trying to make?
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Re: So electric may just be a passing fad again

Post by gmrocket »

peejay wrote: Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:21 pm
gmrocket wrote: Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:22 am There are some funny videos online of tesla owners being absolutely fine with losing 50% to 60% range in cold weather..

And my T-bird went from 17-18mpg to 2mpg in the winter. Giving it a range of about 30 miles. What is the point you are trying to make?
Ya, sure you got just 2mpg 🙄

No person in their right mind would put up with a 50% loss in distance from a full tank in a gas car in cold weather.

The vehicle would be back at the dealers in no time.

Tesla owners are more into being the first in their neighborhood to get a tesla, so they can look virtuous. It's not about saving the planet.

Do you know how to calculate the loss factor(actual mileage) of these vehicles after it charges all night, by a power plant fueled by fossil fuels that's maybe 55% to 80% if your lucky, without the transmission losses(approx another 5%)of being factored in( most people live far away from gen stations) then only gets to just above 80% full charge, and has drastically reduced range by 50% in unfavorable weather?
Last edited by gmrocket on Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: So electric may just be a passing fad again

Post by peejay »

gmrocket wrote: Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:09 pm
peejay wrote: Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:21 pm
gmrocket wrote: Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:22 am There are some funny videos online of tesla owners being absolutely fine with losing 50% to 60% range in cold weather..

And my T-bird went from 17-18mpg to 2mpg in the winter. Giving it a range of about 30 miles. What is the point you are trying to make?
Ya, sure it went to 2mpg 🙄

No person in their right mind would put up with a 50% loss in distance from a full tank in a gas car in cold weather.
It's the reality of it. Also, carburetors suck.

You should see what happens with my modern (well, three or four generations old technology) '06 Volvo does when it is cold out. In an effort to get the catalyst lit off, it records about 3mpg driving down the road at 35mph before everything is up to temp. That's the rolling average, not the combined average which includes lots of time stopped in traffic jams because of people in their pickups and SUVs who can't get moving at lights.

Eskimos need to eat 10,000 calories a day just to keep themselves warm, too.
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Re: So electric may just be a passing fad again

Post by gmrocket »

peejay wrote: Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:20 pm
gmrocket wrote: Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:09 pm
peejay wrote: Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:21 pm


And my T-bird went from 17-18mpg to 2mpg in the winter. Giving it a range of about 30 miles. What is the point you are trying to make?
Ya, sure it went to 2mpg 🙄

No person in their right mind would put up with a 50% loss in distance from a full tank in a gas car in cold weather.
It's the reality of it. Also, carburetors suck.

You should see what happens with my modern (well, three or four generations old technology) '06 Volvo does when it is cold out. In an effort to get the catalyst lit off, it records about 3mpg driving down the road at 35mph before everything is up to temp. That's the rolling average, not the combined average which includes lots of time stopped in traffic jams because of people in their pickups and SUVs who can't get moving at lights.

Eskimos need to eat 10,000 calories a day just to keep themselves warm, too.
So you agree, they are useless in northern climates.

What about really hot areas where the A/C also kills the the range? The loss in a gas vehicle isn't nearly as bad
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