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364 Buick question (Old guys, step up.....)

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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machine shop tom
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364 Buick question (Old guys, step up.....)

Post by machine shop tom » Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:48 pm

I'm working on a set of 364 Buick heads (circa 1960). I have disassembled a few sets of these old nail-heads, but I have never seen any valve stem seals and there seems to be no room for them. Yet AERA says they have umbrella seals and the NAPA picture of the head set contents shows valve seals. I really don't think there is room for them, and I don't think all that much oil reaches the valves, especially if the rocker shaft assembly is worn, so I am not inclined to machine the guides for seals.

What do you old fellers with experience on these heads think? (I'm thinking Jack Vines......)

Thanks,

tom
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Re: 364 Buick question (Old guys, step up.....)

Post by Morpheus » Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:18 pm

Tom, try T/A Performance. They still have parts for the old nailheads.

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Re: 364 Buick question (Old guys, step up.....)

Post by ProPower engines » Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:54 am

having seen them recently they were more of a deflector similar to an older LA Chrysler.
But not like the old cadillac umbrella seal for depth.
But as mentioned T/A performance should have them in stock or diamentions
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machine shop tom
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Re: 364 Buick question (Old guys, step up.....)

Post by machine shop tom » Sat Jul 02, 2011 10:23 am

They must be very small to not interfere with the inner spring. I wonder if they disintegrate like the old Ford umbrellas did. There was absolutely no sign of a seal or any pieces of such in any of the heads I've disassembled.


tom
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Re: 364 Buick question (Old guys, step up.....)

Post by PackardV8 » Sat Jul 02, 2011 10:33 am

Buick didn't put valve guide seals on the Nailhead until 1966....and then they used them only on the intakes.

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machine shop tom
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Re: 364 Buick question (Old guys, step up.....)

Post by machine shop tom » Sat Jul 02, 2011 11:04 am

PackardV8 wrote:Buick didn't put valve guide seals on the Nailhead until 1966....and then they used them only on the intakes.

jack vines
Thanks, Jack, THAT clears things up big time. I thought I was going crazy. Judging by how bad the guides were in these heads when I disassembled them, I don't think I want to restrict the oil to them. I relined them with phoshpor bronze liners and sized them at .0025" exhaust, .0015"-.002 intake, toward the tight side for both.

tom
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Re: 364 Buick question (Old guys, step up.....)

Post by numboltz » Tue May 19, 2020 2:05 am

IIRC they had a rubber flat seal that sat on top of the spring retainer. Was an old
trick to use them on SBC's that were long in the tooth and the customer wanted a
$5 rebuild for worn out guides. Don't remember what year nail heads...

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Re: 364 Buick question (Old guys, step up.....)

Post by GLHS60 » Tue May 19, 2020 3:03 am

Jack, how did they get away with the lifter running square on the cam?

I don't remember them having any unusual cam and lifter wear issues.'

I found them to be a very sturdy Engine, more so than the later Buicks.

Later Buick heads seemed to easily overpower their connecting rods.

Thanks
Randy
PackardV8 wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2011 10:33 am
Buick didn't put valve guide seals on the Nailhead until 1966....and then they used them only on the intakes.

jack vines
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Re: 364 Buick question (Old guys, step up.....)

Post by PackardV8 » Tue May 19, 2020 12:21 pm

GLHS60 wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 3:03 am
Jack, how did they get away with the lifter running square on the cam? I don't remember them having any unusual cam and lifter wear issues.'
IIRC, the lifter centerline is offset to the cam lobe centerline so the cam lobe pushes only on one side of the lifter, the force differential rotating the lifter.
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Re: 364 Buick question (Old guys, step up.....)

Post by Truckedup » Tue May 19, 2020 3:16 pm

PackardV8 wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 12:21 pm
GLHS60 wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 3:03 am
Jack, how did they get away with the lifter running square on the cam? I don't remember them having any unusual cam and lifter wear issues.'
IIRC, the lifter centerline is offset to the cam lobe centerline so the cam lobe pushes only on one side of the lifter, the force differential rotating the lifter.
So, I understand the SBC cam is not exactly parallel to the crank center line ? If so, is this common?
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Re: 364 Buick question (Old guys, step up.....)

Post by PackardV8 » Tue May 19, 2020 4:28 pm

Truckedup wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 3:16 pm
So, I understand the SBC cam is not exactly parallel to the crank center line ? If so, is this common?
We have a technical terminology problem. AFAIK, the SBC cam tunnel centerline is parallel to the crank center line.
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Re: 364 Buick question (Old guys, step up.....)

Post by Truckedup » Tue May 19, 2020 5:31 pm

Ok.....Thr old Chevy inline 235-261 and GMC 302 I messed with had the lifters offset to the cam lobes..The cam grinders told me the lobes are also ground to spin the lifters...
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Re: 364 Buick question (Old guys, step up.....)

Post by GLHS60 » Tue May 19, 2020 7:10 pm

Appreciate the reply Jack.

For some reason I had it in my mind the lifters didn't rotate.

Thanks
Randy
PackardV8 wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 12:21 pm
GLHS60 wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 3:03 am
Jack, how did they get away with the lifter running square on the cam? I don't remember them having any unusual cam and lifter wear issues.'
IIRC, the lifter centerline is offset to the cam lobe centerline so the cam lobe pushes only on one side of the lifter, the force differential rotating the lifter.
Sherwood Park
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Re: 364 Buick question (Old guys, step up.....)

Post by Kevin Johnson » Tue May 19, 2020 8:23 pm

GLHS60 wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 7:10 pm
Appreciate the reply Jack.

For some reason I had it in my mind the lifters didn't rotate.

Thanks
Randy
Page 490: Column 2, lines 3-8.

http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/members/ ... _Buick.pdf

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Re: 364 Buick question (Old guys, step up.....)

Post by PackardV8 » Wed May 20, 2020 10:04 am

KJ, thanks for the link which explains the design. My IIRC was IFIRIC (in fact,i recalled incorrectly.)
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