Question about 100% water injection

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Roy
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Re: Question about 100% water injection

Post by Roy »

exhaustgases wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:49 pm Sounds like they need to be made from Inconel.
Nozzles are mounted in the intake horn above the manifold, so the only heat they see is whatever the charge air cooler doesn't remove and normal engine bay heat. I really need to figure out how to put up pictures.
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Re: Question about 100% water injection

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Please excuse the rats nest of wiring and plumbing. Much of this system is made of cheap components which I am still testing, so i did not tidy up yet. Plus I have been swapping lines around trying nozzles.


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This shows a very active area. In the back is the main supply manifold, 1/2 nylon line feeding 4 1/4 outlet lines (1 spare in case I decide to add a 4th stage at WOT) In the front is the boost reference manifold which has all of my pressure switches, 5/10/20 psi.

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Cheapie water valves rated for 140psi (they stick with anything more.. did NOT know that at the time of purchase) $10/ea amazon.

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RV 8 gallon pottable water tank $50 including shipping wrapped in an old curtain for rub protection , and the mount I made from some scrap angle iron (why use good stuff? I use that on paying jobs!) Plus the 1.1 GPH@80psi ($35) pump which i turned up to 120 psi (It will go to 175 but my valves stuck :evil: ) you can also just barely see another valve to the left of the tank. When power is shut off to the system (which is tied in to the ecm ign+ power supply fuse) this valve opens (normally open, power to close) bleeding all pressure from the system back to the tank. This is a failsafe in case the relay feeding the pump decides to stick at key off (relay signal+ comes from ecm ign+, ecm ign+ is directly hooked to this valve.) Obviously we don't want to find out a valve leaked overnight and filled the intake up.

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The ugliest part of the system currently, this side is truly under development. RV water filter made by camco used as a pre-filter for the reverse osmosis filter above it. My plan is to use a garden hose to fill the tank, thus making any mpg gains close to free (otherwise what little gains there are would be useless)


I am currently waiting for a .5L rv accumulator to show up in the mail to add to the pressure side. The pump is cycling so much that its doing all kinds of bad things. But thats because I have found you can inject a LOT more water than I thought. Stage 1 started as 60ml/min and is now up to 275ml/min. Stage 2 is 175ml/min. Stage 3 is using my original stage 1 nozzle, 60 ml/min. I need to purchase more but I want to iron out the issues first. Next I am going to run both the 275 and the 60 together for stage 1and see if it quenches out.
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Re: Question about 100% water injection

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That is my largest nozzle (275) which I am currenly using for stage 1, just plugged almost solid on my way to the shop. Distilled water is out as the solution. Next is water soluble cutting oil.
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Re: Question about 100% water injection

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Initial mpg results are in.

100-120psi supply pressure, snow performance nozzles, 5/10/20psi

Baseline 18.6mpg

Stage 1 60ml
Stage 2 175ml
Stage 3 275ml
18 mpg
EGT reduction 50-150F on the road.

Stage 1 175ml
Stage 2 275ml
Stage 3 turned off
17.6 mpg
EGT reduction 150-300F on the road.

Will update on water soluble oil in a few more days. Hasn't plugged in 2 days
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Re: Question about 100% water injection

Post by Kevin Johnson »

It sounds like your injection system had some contamination that was not completely flushed out.

If you like reading FDA documentation, here is a start: https://www.fda.gov/inspections-complia ... system-793

Many of my chemical compounding customers had issues with biological growth from their water supplies which were also the source of their distilled water operations for blending.

https://www.sierrasprings.com/files/non ... 022417.pdf

Table 3 appears to show what contaminant levels the FDA has established for "distilled water" and your chosen supplier may meet them to a lesser or greater degree.
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Roy
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Re: Question about 100% water injection

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Update #2

Test #3a
Stage 1 60ml
Stage 2 275ml
Stage 3 175ml
19.1 mpg
Ran out of water 100 miles from home so this could be a fluke.

Test #3b will be another full 400 mile tank of fuel.

6oz of water soluble oil to 10 gallons of water seems to have fixed the rust issue, no rust issues in about 4-5 days now, which is longer than both previous times I had issues.
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Re: Question about 100% water injection

Post by Kevin Johnson »

Metal working fluids typically have a biocide/preservative of some type in them. It sounds like (?) you have been using the fluid continuously now.

We used to refer people to Dow Chemical because they were willing to test samples of people's product and provide a dosage level recommendation at no charge.

Here is an information sheet: http://www.bencide.co.kr/data/DOWICIDE.pdf

I am glad your tests are proceeding smoothly now. =D>
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Re: Question about 100% water injection

Post by shoedoos »

Roy, what is plugging up the jets?
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Re: Question about 100% water injection

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Roy wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:54 pm ...The inside of the anodized aluminum nozzle holders (snow 90 degree) had rust stains as well, but only on the side the nozzle was in....
This statement concerns me. I assume by rust (hydrated iron oxide) you are referring to an orange-brown to red colour that you noticed, which would indicate an iron source in your water.

Aluminium cannot rust as it contains no iron particles. However, it will corrode with oxygen forming a hard, whitish aluminium oxide.

Oil can coat and thus, prevent oxidising.
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Re: Question about 100% water injection

Post by Kevin Johnson »

Starting afresh.

Roy,

In your original post you listed Summit as your source (?) of the nozzles. Below is a search of Summit's offerings as of a few minutes ago (maybe this has changed over the past weeks):

https://www.summitracing.com/search/par ... =Ascending

Which particular Snow Performance nozzles are you using?
https://www.snowperformance.net/6-nozzle-625ml-sno-40625.asp wrote:The Snow Performance Hyper-Sonic water-methanol injection nozzle is the worlds best selling and most advanced water-meth nozzle. Constructed out of 100% methanol resistant stainless steel/zinc plating, ...
Maybe I am interpreting this incorrectly, but the above description appears to say that either stainless or zinc-plated steel might be used. If you had the latter, running hard water through the jets initially might have abraded away the zinc plating leading to your troubles.

?
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Re: Question about 100% water injection

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Dust Buster wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 3:07 am
Roy wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:54 pm ...The inside of the anodized aluminum nozzle holders (snow 90 degree) had rust stains as well, but only on the side the nozzle was in....
This statement concerns me. I assume by rust (hydrated iron oxide) you are referring to an orange-brown to red colour that you noticed, which would indicate an iron source in your water.

Aluminium cannot rust as it contains no iron particles. However, it will corrode with oxygen forming a hard, whitish aluminium oxide.

Oil can coat and thus, prevent oxidising.
You are correct sir, its very difficult to see in the pictures but it is a reddish brown stain. I suspect the remaining water in the nozzle was turning into a rust puddle (think of bolts you forget outside in a container that got rained on.) And being blown slightly backward when boost started but before the pressure switch was triggered, obviously water compresses and lines expand. The rust stains I was seeing on the brass screen holder on the nozzles were from this as well I believe. The aluminum anodizing remained intact, the rust stains wiped off with q-tips.
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Re: Question about 100% water injection

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Kevin Johnson wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 6:37 am Starting afresh.

Roy,

In your original post you listed Summit as your source (?) of the nozzles. Below is a search of Summit's offerings as of a few minutes ago (maybe this has changed over the past weeks):

https://www.summitracing.com/search/par ... =Ascending

Which particular Snow Performance nozzles are you using?
https://www.snowperformance.net/6-nozzle-625ml-sno-40625.asp wrote:The Snow Performance Hyper-Sonic water-methanol injection nozzle is the worlds best selling and most advanced water-meth nozzle. Constructed out of 100% methanol resistant stainless steel/zinc plating, ...
Maybe I am interpreting this incorrectly, but the above description appears to say that either stainless or zinc-plated steel might be used. If you had the latter, running hard water through the jets initially might have abraded away the zinc plating leading to your troubles.

?
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sno-40600#

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sno-40175

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sno-40375


You could very well be right kevin, but what I do not understand is why in the description its listed as a water injection nozzle if it's unsafe to use with water. Keep in mind ALL water has been ran through a name brand water filter which advertises its ability to reduce both particulate matter and minerals (same concept as quality whole house water filters) My next thought in regards to hardness is why does the rest of the brass fitting look like new, no calcium buildup like I see in old copper pipes I have removed,, no signs of oxidation, etc etc.. But you could still be right as it took longer to plug the first time than the second, but I attribute that to the simple fact that once rusting begins it causes the iron to become rougher, thus increasing surface area, thus causing faster rusting. After I do some more testing I am planning on trying prometh nozzles. I want to try some different sizes but have been completely disappointed in Snow's quality- BUT I am planning on taking my old nozzles and putting them in a brand new bottle of water and leaving them in the summer sun to increase the heat and seeing how long they take to rust before I say without a doubt that Snow makes subpar nozzles. If anyone has a preffered brand of water let me know, I would like for this to be an unbiased test. Or I could use some non oiled water which has been ran through my filter. What would you all like to see?

Now, I have no experience running meth or water/meth but from what I have heard water/meth is hard on seals and causes rust/corrosion (meth is hard on seals, water causes the rust). I don't know if that is true but I would love to hear your experiences as I am planning a meth injection system and used this project mainly as a testing grounds for the setup.
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Re: Question about 100% water injection

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I was incorrect in earlier posts, stage 3 is a 375ml. The # on the nozzles is 1/3/5.
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Re: Question about 100% water injection

Post by Dust Buster »

On another installation with meths and distilled water, some other brands were Devils Own, AEM, MD, Cooling Mist, NX, Aquastealth, Alcohol Injection Systems, Joe's, Kennedy's, Labonte, RB Racing, CP-E in descending order of installs.

Some ground / well and even municipal water contain high levels of iron.
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Re: Question about 100% water injection

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Dust Buster wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:12 am ...
Some ground / well and even municipal water contain high levels of iron.
:lol: Yes, in fact, our well has high levels of iron. Ask the man who has been maintaining the softener for the past 25 years.
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