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I Still Like Pushrods, They're Still Viable

Engine tech, for those engines, products, and technologies of yesteryear.

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frnkeore
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Re: I Still Like Pushrods, They're Still Viable

Post by frnkeore »

The answer is, Dan Gurney.

His car, Eagle
His engine, Gurney/Westlake
He drove his car, too

Although not a American, Jack Brabham was the only other, to do so.

But, that is really irrelevant. Penske just didn't knock on enough doors, I guess. Just like his US competitors didn't.
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Re: I Still Like Pushrods, They're Still Viable

Post by hoffman900 »

frnkeore wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 7:38 pm The answer is, Dan Gurney.

His car, Eagle
His engine, Gurney/Westlake
He drove his car, too

Although not a American, Jack Brabham was the only other, to do so.

But, that is really irrelevant. Penske just didn't knock on enough doors, I guess. Just like his US competitors didn't.
He was last competitive in 1967 in Formula One. He entered 11 races and finished in two, a 1st and a 3rd. F1 was a lot different by 1975 when Penske dabbled, and it is lightyears different now.

I see you poking at modern stuff and calling it Formula Ford, but I take it you have no issue with Formula One when it was pretty much spec Cosworth DFV?

I guess this is what I get for peaking into the "vintage tech" forum, but arguing 50+ year old talking points seems really silly. The events themselves qualify for an AARP membership.
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Re: I Still Like Pushrods, They're Still Viable

Post by frnkeore »

hoffman900 wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 12:35 am
frnkeore wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 7:38 pm The answer is, Dan Gurney.

His car, Eagle
His engine, Gurney/Westlake
He drove his car, too

Although not a American, Jack Brabham was the only other, to do so.

But, that is really irrelevant. Penske just didn't knock on enough doors, I guess. Just like his US competitors didn't.
He was last competitive in 1967 in Formula One. He entered 11 races and finished in two, a 1st and a 3rd. F1 was a lot different by 1975 when Penske dabbled, and it is lightyears different now.
All racing is generational. Gurney was a true success story. He started his racing training, in the early '50's, on the streets in Riverside, CA, in a '39 Ford and didn't start as a "rich kid", he earned everything, including his success. He placed 2nd at the in the first, Times Grand Prix in '57, behind Carol Shelby. In '59 he got a ride in the Ferrari F1 car and ran 86 races, from then to '70. He ran Indy, Can Am, LeMans, Trans Am and built cars for most of them and for many other series. I think all that, puts him way ahead on Penske, who started with "money".

I see you poking at modern stuff and calling it Formula Ford, but I take it you have no issue with Formula One when it was pretty much spec Cosworth DFV?
Cosworth, is another success story! They competed against many different engines, including BRM, Ferrari, BMW, Renault and others. Their engines beat "all comers". They were in a lot of cars, because they produced the best, reliable power. Not because they were the mandated, approve engine.

I guess this is what I get for peaking into the "vintage tech" forum, but arguing 50+ year old talking points seems really silly. The events themselves qualify for an AARP membership.
Bob, that is the name of this forum section and we were talking about race winning, not "talking points".
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Re: I Still Like Pushrods, They're Still Viable

Post by David Redszus »

frnkeore wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 7:38 pm The answer is, Dan Gurney.

His car, Eagle
His engine, Gurney/Westlake
He drove his car, too

Although not a American, Jack Brabham was the only other, to do so.

But, that is really irrelevant. Penske just didn't knock on enough doors, I guess. Just like his US competitors didn't.
American drivers who have competed in Formula One consists of a short list.
Mario Andretti
Phil Hill
Dan Gurney
Peter Revson
Ritchie Ginther

But the list of Formula One drivers who have competed at Indy is quite lengthy.

Dan Gurney's first F1 victory came behind the wheel of a Porsche in 1962.

American engine builders in F1.
Eagle
Ford
Pratt & Whitney
Scarab

American constructors in F1.
Haas
Eagle
Kurtis
Parnelli
Penske
Shadow
Tec-Mec

One must remember that for decades, F1 received little or no media coverage in the US. Race results
could be found on page 16 of the sports section, right after bowling.
Today, the worldwide viewing audience is massive closely paralleling the marketing reach of many
global corporations.
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Re: I Still Like Pushrods, They're Still Viable

Post by frnkeore »

We must now add one other American owned constructor, McLaren. As a matter of fact, the rights to F1, is also, now American owned.

But, it is sad that there have been so few American drivers. You did forget, at least two American F1 drivers, Eddie Cheever and Alexander Rossi.
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Re: I Still Like Pushrods, They're Still Viable

Post by CastIron »

Already forgotten Michael Andretti's aborted McLaren career?
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Re: I Still Like Pushrods, They're Still Viable

Post by David Redszus »

frnkeore wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 8:19 pm We must now add one other American owned constructor, McLaren. As a matter of fact, the rights to F1, is also, now American owned.

But, it is sad that there have been so few American drivers. You did forget, at least two American F1 drivers, Eddie Cheever and Alexander Rossi.
McLaren is a British company based in Woking, UK.

Eddie Cheever while technically an American by birth was born in Rome and raced almost entirely in Europe.

Neither Cheever nor Rossi got much beyond test of F1 cars and had no significant impact.

While ther is no doubt that F1 racing is quite expensive, the US has plenty of billionaires who could
easily afford the sport; not to mention filthy rich social media companies. It takes a lot more than money
to be competitive much less get on the podium.
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Re: I Still Like Pushrods, They're Still Viable

Post by Ken_Parkman »

The ST6 is actually Canadian, Pratt & Whitney Canada.
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Re: I Still Like Pushrods, They're Still Viable

Post by frnkeore »

While I never cared for Eddie Cheever (another egotistical rich kid), as a driver or in general. He raced a solid 10 years. This is his F1 history:

Year Entrant Team Pts WDC Pos. Report
1978 Theodore Racing Hong Kong Theodore-Ford Cosworth
Olympus Cameras Hesketh Racing Hesketh-Ford Cosworth
1979: Did Not Compete
1980 Osella Squadra Corse Osella-Ford Cosworth
1981 Team Tyrrell Tyrrell-Ford Cosworth
1982 Equipe Talbot Gitanes Ligier-Matra
1983 Equipe Renault Elf Renault
1984 Benetton Team Alfa Romeo Alfa Romeo
1985 Benetton Team Alfa Romeo Alfa Romeo
1986 Haas Lola Lola-Ford 0 NC Report
1987 USF&G Arrows Megatron Arrows-Megatron
1988 USF&G Arrows Megatron Arrows-Megatron
1989 USF&G Arrows Arrows-Ford Cosworth

There is nothing technical about being a US citizen, You either are or your not. He was born to US citizens. He stayed in Europe to race at the highest level. He has lived in the US since he started Indy Cars, 1990.

Rossi, a much better driver and person, also raced in Europe and went up threw the Formula's, including 2 years GP2 and 4 wins, before getting about a 1/2 year in F1.

I was wrong about the McLaren ownership, it's owned 56% by The Bahrain Mumtalakat Holding Company and American, Zak Brown, is Team Principle.

Most F1 teams are based in the UK, including Mercedes and Renault.
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Re: I Still Like Pushrods, They're Still Viable

Post by BCjohnny »

The last bastion of pushrod engines is obviously in Vee engines, where packaging convenience, but mostly cost, has made it difficult for some manufacturers to abandon them to history

Like for like they cannot usually compete with multi valve ohc engines in most 'light' vehicle categories, not least in most customers' expectations

Ford's choice with the 7.3 however shows that in specific ones they still can, particularly when played to that buyer perception

But for most hobbyists pushrod engines can still produce more than enough power, due to decades of ongoing development, without the cost and complexity of more modern designs

Factor in the demands of certain racing division rules, the burgeoning restoration market etc, and they're going to be familiar for some decades to come
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Re: I Still Like Pushrods, They're Still Viable

Post by David Redszus »

But for most hobbyists pushrod engines can still produce more than enough power, due to decades of ongoing development, without the cost and complexity of more modern designs
Perhaps it is a bit different in the UK, but here in the states, I find it quite difficult to find technicians who are
capable of correctly rebuilding 50 year old cars. If they can't simply buy replacement parts off the shelf, you may be assured that their work will result in a product with reduced performance compared to bone stock.

So now we have young techs who do not understand old cars, and old techs who do not understand electronics
of modern cars.
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Re: I Still Like Pushrods, They're Still Viable

Post by Ron E »

I was thinking more in terms of current engines. LS/LT, new Hemis.
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