Flat Tappert camshaft issues.

[rebelrouser]

Two good videos from same shop about flat tappet camshaft issues, same ones that I have seen the last couple years. Second video mentions why maybe SEMA needs to step up about this issue.

https://youtu.be/pP_GYZWcpok

https://youtu.be/e96szd_HbwE

[Tom68]

Two good videos from same shop about flat tappet camshaft issues, same ones that I have seen the last couple years. Second video mentions why maybe SEMA needs to step up about this issue.

https://youtu.be/pP_GYZWcpok

https://youtu.be/e96szd_HbwE

Saw that, bit of mixing suppliers and parts over decades there, I would have thought if you don't buy as a cam and lifter kit because you've grabbed a 40 year old cam off your shelf, you'd at least go to top of the shelf lifters.

[PackardV8]

SEMA is a marketing organization. More failed flat tappet lobes mean more expensive roller cam and kit sales, no?

[CamKing]

There are very good cam cores, and very good lifters that are available.
The problem is, most companies buy the cheaper cores and lifters, so they can keep their price point low.
Just look at the cams sold on jegs.com. They have finished flat tappet cams being sold for less then I pay for the cam core. Same with lifters.

Heck, you can get a complete cam kit(Cam, lifters, springs, retainers, seals, and timing set) for close to what I sell a flat tappet cam for.
Do you really think it's going to be any good ?

[blykins]

I think a lot of failures can be attributed to valve spring loads on break-in. A lot of aftermarket cylinder heads come new in the box, advertised for flat tappet cams, with 140 lbs seat and well into the 300's on open. Guys just bolt them on and go, thinking that because they were "for flat tappet cams" that there would be no issues. I see very few guys checking spring loads or attempting to lessen the spring load for break-in.

[rebelrouser]

I think a lot of failures can be attributed to valve spring loads on break-in. A lot of aftermarket cylinder heads come new in the box, advertised for flat tappet cams, with 140 lbs seat and well into the 300's on open. Guys just bolt them on and go, thinking that because they were "for flat tappet cams" that there would be no issues. I see very few guys checking spring loads or attempting to lessen the spring load for break-in.

I will totally agree with your statement on valve spring pressures, and not only many times are they too stiff, but I have gotten similar heads to install and they are never even the same spring pressures. I had a guy a while back buy the whole top engine kit from Edelbrock for a 383 mopar, carb, intake, heads, cam and lifters. Springs were too strong called Edelbrock they agreed, so I cut the seat pads to lower the pressure. Went to degree the camshaft, and not only was it not the cam on the card it was not even a grind Edelbrock had in their catalog.

[rebelrouser]

There are very good cam cores, and very good lifters that are available.
The problem is, most companies buy the cheaper cores and lifters, so they can keep their price point low.
Just look at the cams sold on jegs.com. They have finished flat tappet cams being sold for less then I pay for the cam core. Same with lifters.

Heck, you can get a complete cam kit(Cam, lifters, springs, retainers, seals, and timing set) for close to what I sell a flat tappet cam for.
Do you really think it's going to be any good ?

I can quite agree with your statement. But the business that come in my shop a lot of the time is a pile of collected parts that they want me to put together and make run. And I Have recommended your cams to many people, but tight wads that they are they did not call you. So I can get a mild hydraulic roller many times for just a little less than a good flat tappet. Advantage to me is no worries about break-in, no changing valve springs after break-in, and no worries that the customer puts to right oil in it down the road. They can buy oil at WalMart. If I get to build a higher end engine they usually get a solid roller.

[Brokejoebuilds]

I went through 6 sets of bad hydraulic lifters last year. I will never build another hyd flat tappet engine because of it. No matter how you break it in and how many precautions you take. Two sets went flat, the rest will collapse and get stuck in the closed position. Havent had issues with solid flats though.

[Brokejoebuilds]

received_435910001374067.jpeg

This was a lifter from comp for bbc application. Proper break in on the dyno. Pulled it appart looking to make changes for more power and I caught this lifter starting to fracture. Cam lobe was fine but the lifter was going to fail. Motor ran flawlessly on the dyno as well and nothing in the oil after dyno.

[Mummert]

I can't think of a time in the last 30 +years when a flat tappet cam having an issue wasn't a possibility. There have been times when oil or lifter quality made things worse. In this day and age use a roller cam of some nature, if a particular engine or a set of rules require a flat tappet use the best parts you can get. Its so much cheaper at the end of the day.
When we drag race Y Blocks we have to use a flat tappet cam, we run Tool Steel lifters and life is nice. If you have to use hardenable iron lifters do your research.
It would be nice people would let us know whats working. Many cam manufacturers don't want to tell you who they are sourcing their lifters from, but in this day and age it would be nice to know. I think the good Y block iron lifters are Brazilian made SBI right now.

[PRH]

received_435910001374067.jpeg
This was a lifter from comp for bbc application. Proper break in on the dyno. Pulled it appart looking to make changes for more power and I caught this lifter starting to fracture. Cam lobe was fine but the lifter was going to fail. Motor ran flawlessly on the dyno as well and nothing in the oil after dyno.

I had someone send me some pics a couple years ago of a failed cam and lifters......... that were what it looks like after the pieces fall off the lifter.
It wasn’t pretty. I’d never seen that before.

Looks like you caught it just in time.

[Steve Salesky]

I'd say the problem is the OEM's don't use flat tappet cams and have not since about the late 80's. There never were many companies that made the cam cores or lifters. When you look at a hydraulic lifter in order to work correctly it has to hold some of the tightest tolerances than any other part going into an engine.

When a part is made for an OEM it has to meet a specification or it will get rejected. Maybe it will not be the best part, but it will meet a certain standard. Today a manufacture makes a part and unless you have the ability to analyze it your at the mercy of the representation of quality by whoever sold it to you. So you have parts that are not built compliant to a standard and the fact that the volume is not there like it was years ago makes it not worth the investment needed to turn out a quality part at a cheap price.

I have no doubt some failures are a result of people not following good break in practices, but are plenty of builders that know what they are doing that have been losing cams so there are real quality issues no doubt.

[rebelrouser]

I'd say the problem is the OEM's don't use flat tappet cams and have not since about the late 80's. There never were many companies that made the cam cores or lifters. When you look at a hydraulic lifter in order to work correctly it has to hold some of the tightest tolerances than any other part going into an engine.

When a part is made for an OEM it has to meet a specification or it will get rejected. Maybe it will not be the best part, but it will meet a certain standard. Today a manufacture makes a part and unless you have the ability to analyze it your at the mercy of the representation of quality by whoever sold it to you. So you have parts that are not built compliant to a standard and the fact that the volume is not there like it was years ago makes it not worth the investment needed to turn out a quality part at a cheap price.

I have no doubt some failures are a result of people not following good break in practices, but are plenty of builders that know what they are doing that have been losing cams so there are real quality issues no doubt.

I agree. And I do not know if flat tappet camshafts and roller camshafts can be ground on the same equipment, and all the process involved. So how old and obsolete is the equipment being used? How many machine operators are still around that have not retired and know how to use the equipment? And flat tappet camshafts are a small part of the market, manufacturers simply don't really care. Most performance parts are sold with weak or no warranties, so selling substandard parts costs them little money. Oil manufactures have little incentive to make oils for flat tappet camshafts either, so special additives are needed also making the problem, worse. I have worked on cars since 1974, many many camshafts back in the day were abused with improper break-in and still managed to survive. I have little to no faith in a generic customer to properly break-in a camshaft and use proper oils, which it seems is much more important now than it was back then.

[hoffman900]

Flat tappets have been a problem my entire life. Read about what the NASCAR builders were doing in the 1980s and they were still eating up camshafts, it was just part of doing business then.

Some of it might be spring pressures used, I’m sure a lot of it is people using the lowest / cheapest end products for performance applications.

Use what Mike specs out, tool steel lifters, buy grom places like Performance Precision Products, etc. I think the days of a $300 cam kit with lifters that works is over, and I’m not sure if those packages were ever really not a crapshoot. On a 4 cylinder (so 8 valves) engine we’re using custom $1000 tool steel lifters (2010 prices) from PPP with zero issues (never had to buy new sets beyond what was ordered then). Engines have blown up around them for other reasons and the lifters look great.

OHC tappet valvetrains are essentially flat tappet designs and you don’t have nearly the same problems. A lot of that is I don’t think there is a wide availability of cheap white box parts. It’s either old OEM stock or higher end aftermarket stuff.

As for the video, SEMA is just a trade marketing organization. They have no reason to jump in and even if they did, and convinced manufacturers to build better stuff for lower end products, everyone would be screaming about the cost.

I think the old idiom “ good, fast, cheap: pick two” applies just as it does everything else in the engine.

[CamKing]

I'd say the problem is the OEM's don't use flat tappet cams and have not since about the late 80's.

Sorry, but that's just not true. Stop believing all the B.S.
GM still builds and sells multiple crate engines with flat tappet cams. So does Ford.
Those crate engines are also warrantied.
The same quality cam cores and lifters that were available in the 80's are still available today.
The issue is with the aftermarket companies not wanting to spend the money on those high quality cam cores and lifters.
You get what you pay for.