Questionable Vintage Head?

[Daryl S.]

A couple of years ago I had a head built. Ported, with 7mm valves. Datsun R16 pushrod engine.
This is what I got....I sent it back.
Looks like crap to me, but, am I overthinking this?
You can't tell on the valves, but, it looked like they were 'lightened' on the concave face, rough lines across the face of the valve from the lathe.
His comments were -
On the springs - "It's just surface rust, nothing to worry about."
On the corrosion - "Common for a 50 year old head, it won't affect performance at all."

[Walter R. Malik]

A couple of years ago I had a head built. Ported, with 7mm valves. Datsun R16 pushrod engine.
This is what I got....I sent it back.
Looks like crap to me, but, am I overthinking this?
You can't tell on the valves, but, it looked like they were 'lightened' on the concave face, rough lines across the face of the valve from the lathe.
His comments were -
On the springs - "It's just surface rust, nothing to worry about."
On the corrosion - "Common for a 50 year old head, it won't affect performance at all."

Do you really expect a "vintage" head to look like it is brand new ...?
What kind of valves did you want? ... heavier O.E.M. type?
Aftermarket valves have those lines and are not polished in manufacturing.

[PackardV8]

As someone who builds and sells seventy-year-old heads, the shop should have sent you a photo and said, "This is the core we have. It will work OK and the price is right; yes or no?

[hoffman900]

My understanding is this was your head and it took a few years to get finished, and they sent back a corroded, roughly machined, head with rusted valve springs?

Are these your springs / valves that you supplied? Are they new? What did the head look like before?

If that’s the case that it didn’t look like this before and those parts are “new”, I wouldn’t have sent it back and would have found someone new.

[BCjohnny]

Firstly, regulars on here are generally wary of posts of this nature as there's the conception that answers may just be used as leverage in a wider bun fight ......

Having said that, if you're going to use castings such as this, as said, you'd better work closely with the customer so everybody's on the same page ..... and you simply have to make more allowances for rare cores

As regards the valves, there's not enough info to form and opinion, the 'rusty' spring issue is just sloppy and it's doubtful how much could have been taken off the deck face to clean it up ....... my guess is not enough

The area that might have shown some willingness would have been the manifold face, it's rare they don't clean up reasonably well

But unless you break cover and fill in the gaps, I really doubt you'll get much sympathy ....... most of us have been on the end of similar 'six of this, half a dozen of the other' nonsense

[Daryl S.]

"Firstly, regulars on here are generally wary of posts of this nature as there's the conception that answers may just be used as leverage in a wider bun fight ......"
Understood, I would be wary as well....He is sticking to his story that "nothing wrong with this head".

"Having said that, if you're going to use castings such as this, as said, you'd better work closely with the customer so everybody's on the same page ..... and you simply have to make more allowances for rare cores"
I sent a core, which, thankfully, he returned to me. Pictures to follow. Not naming names here.

"As regards the valves, there's not enough info to form and opinion, the 'rusty' spring issue is just sloppy and it's doubtful how much could have been taken off the deck face to clean it up ....... my guess is not enough"
I thought the face of the valves, being rough, were kind of shabby. I've also been told that once there's rust on the valvesprings you might as well toss them....

"But unless you break cover and fill in the gaps, I really doubt you'll get much sympathy ......."
Breaking cover. Not looking for sympathy, ever. Clarification on what I assumed was a garbage head. Even if it is 50 yrs old, I have never seen one that bad. I have 7 heads here. I sent him a good one, he sad he had a better one.


by hoffman900 » Tue Jul 25, 2023 10:48 am
"My understanding is this was your head and it took a few years to get finished, and they sent back a corroded, roughly machined, head with rusted valve springs?"
Correct, I sent what I presumed was a very good bare head to be worked on, no valves, no springs....
I sent him my core. Said he had a head that would be better for the job, "a non-smog head", I had sent a "smog" head with provision for air injectors.

"Are these your springs / valves that you supplied? Are they new? What did the head look like before?"
'His' head. Valves, springs, retainer, locks, etc he supplied. My roller rockers. Pictures to follow

"If that’s the case that it didn’t look like this before and those parts are “new”, I wouldn’t have sent it back and would have found someone new."

[Daryl S.]

This is the head that he thankfully returned to me.I have finished it with new 7mm valves, beehive springs (no rust!), retainers, new valve seats. Work done locally. Gasket surface is a little off colour, but clean. Sharp edges around the edges of the chamber have been smoothed as well as the excess threads from the spark plugs. Smog air injector holes have been plugged. The valves are Ferrea, and yes they have a smooth polished face on them.

[Daryl S.]

Hoffman, This actually started with a complete engine sent to a local shop with instructions. That work ....didn't work....Sent a good head to this vendor, was talked into a non-smog head he told me was better suited (just really not), I agreed with out seeing/asking for pictures, because he has good standing in the forum, and sells some hard to get parts. Complete instructions were sent on what I wanted for valve sizes and port finishes in email. None of my instructions were followed. As I said, sent back and found another way....
This head he sent is BY FAR the worst corroded head I have ever seen. I just would not use something like that, and as previously said, I should have been sent pictures before being asked to agree.

Thanks

[BCjohnny]

Thanks for the clarification, on balance sounds like you've not been served as well as you could have been ..... as a 'professional' job it's lacking in several areas

Meant no offence with any of my comments, it's just that without the full story it's difficult to gauge the issue

Good luck if you need to readdress the transaction

[PackardV8]

On the springs - "It's just surface rust, nothing to worry about."

I've also been told that once there's rust on the valvesprings you might as well toss them....

beehive springs (no rust!),

Yes, No, Maybe, It Depends. Because I work with shite as old or even older than your Datsun, we see valve springs with all stages of rust. Surface rust is one thing; a spring just out of the caustic wash which isn't completely rinsed/neutralized, will immediately flash rust. It doesn't hurt anything, just looks bad to the customer. If rust gets bad enough to cause pits, it's junk.

And yes to beehives on old junk. We've yet to see a single spring application which isn't improved by switching to beehives.

[hoffman900]

On the springs - "It's just surface rust, nothing to worry about."

I've also been told that once there's rust on the valvesprings you might as well toss them....

beehive springs (no rust!),

Yes, No, Maybe, It Depends. Because I work with shite as old or even older than your Datsun, we see valve springs with all stages of rust. Surface rust is one thing; a spring just out of the caustic wash which isn't completely rinsed/neutralized, will immediately flash rust. It doesn't hurt anything, just looks bad to the customer. If rust gets bad enough to cause pits, it's junk.

And yes to beehives on old junk. We've yet to see a single spring application which isn't improved by switching to beehives.

If this is for a SCCA GT engine, they’re spinning them to 9k, I don’t think I’d trust any valve spring with rust on them, and the rate these guys blow up those Datsuns, I’m shocked there are still cores around.

[PackardV8]

beehive springs (no rust!),

And yes to beehives on old junk. We've yet to see a single spring application which isn't improved by switching to beehives.

If this is for a SCCA GT engine, they’re spinning them to 9k, I don’t think I’d trust any valve spring with rust on them, and the rate these guys blow up those Datsuns, I’m shocked there are still cores around.

Beehives at 9k? Not tried that.

[Daryl S.]

Thank you for all your info and comments. I always learn things on this site.

This is not an SCCA deal, mostly street with the odd autocross, hopefully. I do expect to take it to about 7,000 rpm on occasion, but not planning for beyond that.
Pac 1223 springs, 90 lbs seat, 250 lbs @ .500" and it's set up for just under .500"
The intake valve @ 1.7" weighs 70 grams. Exhaust @ 1.37" and 60 grams.
Cheers.

[Dan Timberlake]

I'm glad you ditched the rusty sproings.