Who here actually drives an EV/HYBRID?

Anything to do with the electric or hybrid world

Moderator: Team

gruntguru
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1558
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2015 7:56 pm
Location:

Re: Who here actually drives an EV/HYBRID?

Post by gruntguru »

Belgian1979 wrote: Sat Jan 27, 2024 5:25 am
gruntguru wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2024 5:59 pmThe real idiot here is the one that wants to crap on about cable CSA etc. All you really need to know is that residential power cabling is sized to meet evening peak demand and that same cabling is massively oversized between midnight and 6 am. Plenty of surplus to charge EV's during that period.
Look at the connection for your own (residential) home main panel morron. You'll see that it is 3G or 4G25. And since there is no fuse in between your home and the cable in the street that means that it's the same section as on the main cable. Inconvenient truth. Nothing more and nothing less. Grid capacity is what is it irrespective of what google-wizard says. You're a complete idiot.
. . and still he craps on about cable CSA.

Midnight to dawn - plenty of excess capacity in every residential area - inconvenient truth.

When you don't understand something - just resort to name-calling.
gruntguru
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1558
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2015 7:56 pm
Location:

Re: Who here actually drives an EV/HYBRID?

Post by gruntguru »

skinny z wrote: Sat Jan 27, 2024 1:09 pm
Clemson327 wrote: Sat Jan 27, 2024 12:37 pm To argue that a neighborhood of 100 houses only has 65-66 kW of service available makes no sense to me. This means that these houses must not be allowed to have electrical appliances, electrical HVAC, or even a hairdryer/iron for fear of causing a blackout in the entire neighborhood. Is this the case?
I think there's a typo somewhere. At 66,000 watts total available (as indicated above) divided by 100 houses gets you 660 watts per household.
Not a typo - just someone who believes this s**t.
Belgian1979
Guru
Guru
Posts: 4576
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:34 am
Location: Belgium - Koersel

Re: Who here actually drives an EV/HYBRID?

Post by Belgian1979 »

Belgian1979
Guru
Guru
Posts: 4576
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:34 am
Location: Belgium - Koersel

Re: Who here actually drives an EV/HYBRID?

Post by Belgian1979 »

Clemson327 wrote: Sat Jan 27, 2024 12:37 pm To argue that a neighborhood of 100 houses only has 65-66 kW of service available makes no sense to me. This means that these houses must not be allowed to have electrical appliances, electrical HVAC, or even a hairdryer/iron for fear of causing a blackout in the entire neighborhood. Is this the case?
with 16 kWh you can run a normal household, but not charge an EV.
Belgian1979
Guru
Guru
Posts: 4576
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:34 am
Location: Belgium - Koersel

Re: Who here actually drives an EV/HYBRID?

Post by Belgian1979 »

skinny z wrote: Sat Jan 27, 2024 1:09 pm
Clemson327 wrote: Sat Jan 27, 2024 12:37 pm To argue that a neighborhood of 100 houses only has 65-66 kW of service available makes no sense to me. This means that these houses must not be allowed to have electrical appliances, electrical HVAC, or even a hairdryer/iron for fear of causing a blackout in the entire neighborhood. Is this the case?
I think there's a typo somewhere.
At 66,000 watts total available (as indicated above) divided by 100 houses gets you 660 watts per household.
66,000 watts/100 homes = 660 watts
660 watts/240 volts (in Canada) = 2.75 amps!

The average electrical service in this country, when discussing single family homes, is 100 amps at 240/120 volts.
240 volts x 100 amps = 24,000 watts.
24,000 watts x 100 houses = 2,400,000 watts or 2,4000 KW.

My experience tells me that no house is running at the limit. An overnight car charger would take 1440 watts maximum when connected to a 15 amp @ 120 volts circuit (rated at 80%). The house will handle that although if 100 houses charge overnight simultaneously that's an additional 144,000 watts (144 KW) of consumption for the grid that supplies that 100 house neighbourhood. FTR, in the part of the country I live in, there are 100 engine block heaters plugged in for the same amount of time at the same power consumption level. So an overnight EV charge would simply be a block heater substitution.
That's single family home stuff where it's cold.
In other parts of this country, block heaters aren't a thing but the house service is still sized the same. An overnight charge shouldn't be taxing on the grid.
Now, when we're talking high rise buildings with parking for all, then the logistics and capability of the building in question comes very much into play. Especially if each unit in the high rise is independently metered as it is in many places. Getting a individual unit owners electrical service to supply a charging outlet in the underground parking would be all but impossible in many cases.
That's an issue unto itself.
You're confusing capacity, average consumption with momentarily maximum current use vs amount of people using the maximum. If 100 houses start to consume their maximum available limit (let's say 32 A) then the fuse will go out. It is as simple as that. No amount of shit will change that.
Belgian1979
Guru
Guru
Posts: 4576
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:34 am
Location: Belgium - Koersel

Re: Who here actually drives an EV/HYBRID?

Post by Belgian1979 »

skinny z wrote: Sat Jan 27, 2024 1:25 pm Just keep driving your ICE like I'll do. I trust we'll still be able to buy gasoline in twenty years. Or hydrogen...
Don't worryn that's exactly what I'm going to do.
Belgian1979
Guru
Guru
Posts: 4576
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:34 am
Location: Belgium - Koersel

Re: Who here actually drives an EV/HYBRID?

Post by Belgian1979 »

gruntguru wrote: Sat Jan 27, 2024 8:59 pm
skinny z wrote: Sat Jan 27, 2024 1:09 pm
Clemson327 wrote: Sat Jan 27, 2024 12:37 pm To argue that a neighborhood of 100 houses only has 65-66 kW of service available makes no sense to me. This means that these houses must not be allowed to have electrical appliances, electrical HVAC, or even a hairdryer/iron for fear of causing a blackout in the entire neighborhood. Is this the case?
I think there's a typo somewhere. At 66,000 watts total available (as indicated above) divided by 100 houses gets you 660 watts per household.
Not a typo - just someone who believes this s**t.
Correction: I don't believe your shit.
skinny z
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 2553
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:42 am
Location: AB. CA.

Re: Who here actually drives an EV/HYBRID?

Post by skinny z »

Belgian1979 wrote: Sun Jan 28, 2024 3:04 am
skinny z wrote: Sat Jan 27, 2024 1:09 pm
Clemson327 wrote: Sat Jan 27, 2024 12:37 pm To argue that a neighborhood of 100 houses only has 65-66 kW of service available makes no sense to me. This means that these houses must not be allowed to have electrical appliances, electrical HVAC, or even a hairdryer/iron for fear of causing a blackout in the entire neighborhood. Is this the case?
I think there's a typo somewhere.
At 66,000 watts total available (as indicated above) divided by 100 houses gets you 660 watts per household.
66,000 watts/100 homes = 660 watts
660 watts/240 volts (in Canada) = 2.75 amps!

The average electrical service in this country, when discussing single family homes, is 100 amps at 240/120 volts.
240 volts x 100 amps = 24,000 watts.
24,000 watts x 100 houses = 2,400,000 watts or 2,4000 KW.

My experience tells me that no house is running at the limit. An overnight car charger would take 1440 watts maximum when connected to a 15 amp @ 120 volts circuit (rated at 80%). The house will handle that although if 100 houses charge overnight simultaneously that's an additional 144,000 watts (144 KW) of consumption for the grid that supplies that 100 house neighbourhood. FTR, in the part of the country I live in, there are 100 engine block heaters plugged in for the same amount of time at the same power consumption level. So an overnight EV charge would simply be a block heater substitution.
That's single family home stuff where it's cold.
In other parts of this country, block heaters aren't a thing but the house service is still sized the same. An overnight charge shouldn't be taxing on the grid.
Now, when we're talking high rise buildings with parking for all, then the logistics and capability of the building in question comes very much into play. Especially if each unit in the high rise is independently metered as it is in many places. Getting a individual unit owners electrical service to supply a charging outlet in the underground parking would be all but impossible in many cases.
That's an issue unto itself.
You're confusing capacity, average consumption with momentarily maximum current use vs amount of people using the maximum. If 100 houses start to consume their maximum available limit (let's say 32 A) then the fuse will go out. It is as simple as that. No amount of shit will change that.
I'm not confusing anything but I am making a few assumptions.
The 1st one is that all of these households (and lets say that they're in the community I live in because it's representative of the typical Canadian single family town) already have a vehicle that is using one dedicated receptacle to run an engine block heater. That's a situation that actually exists here as when it's -20°C everybody plugs in. That's a single circuit running at 120 volts drawing 12 amps.
Call that what you will. Peak demand is a good term although it may not really be the peak as that might happen at another time of the day. But for what it's worth it's fair to say that almost all of these folks are getting home about the same time, plugging in their vehicle and getting on with dinner and laundry or having a hot shower (using an electric water heater which is 16 amps @ 240 volts). That might be peak rather than the overnight when the vehicles are still plugged in but the household has gone to sleep.

So far, in these parts, when that occurs we've been close to outpacing our power generation. It can't keep up and we have to import electricity from other provinces and the United States. One particularly cold January evening (-40°) we were asked via an emergency alert to reduce our electrical consumption. Shortly after that 250 megawatts was shed from the demand.
The local grid is fine and seems fully capable of handling that demand. As it stands at this moment anyway. Power generation, not so much.
I'm not discussing the future...yet.

Now, the 2nd assumption is that we all switch to an EV and ditch the ICE. We no longer plug in that ICE but instead substitute the EV charger. The overnight chargers plug into a 120 volt/15 amp circuit just like the block heater. So demand wise nothing has changed. I'm leaving the higher wattage quick chargers out of the picture for simplicities sake.

The above isn't confusing anything with anything. It's a statement of fact.

Now, further to your point Belgian, it's entirely likely that our existing transmission network is about as far as it can go. Perhaps this same condition already exists in your country. From what you've saying, it certainly sounds like it.

The province I live in (Alberta) and other provinces I have lived in (Ontario) have slightly different issues when compared to each other. Alberta lacks generating capacity. That was apparent when the alert came through everyone's phone. It may also lack a sufficient distribution network. I imagine that's the case.
Ontario, being nuclear capable and also having an abundance of hydro generation capacity has no issue with demand. Distribution on the other and the size of the population is another matter altogether.

That's just the household side. The business end is a different story and incredibly complex to sort out here.

So, all in all, I'm agreement with you and your pessimistic view of being 100% EV ready. I think we're not.
But as time goes on, like everything else that's come along, we grow into it and adapt. I doubt very much that the facilities to fuel the first ICE cars and service them was keeping pace and it was all doom and gloom.

FWIW, the EV craze, I think, is just that. While my government has mandated the following:
The targets begin for the 2026 model year, with a requirement that at least 20 percent of new light-duty vehicles offered for sale in that year be EVs. The requirements increase annually to 60 percent by 2030 and 100 percent for 2035.

it certainly doesn't mean that it's going to happen. There are alternative fuels like hydrogen that could flip that mandate on it's head.

Anyway, that's the view from my tiny corner of the world. If it does come to 100% of new vehicles sold are EV, there'll still be millions of little polluters running around on gasoline. I drive a 20 year old truck as daily driver now. If I bought a new one in the next 5 years, it'll most likely still be roadworthy well past the EV doomsdate of 2035. I intend to be driving it. My hot rod car too. Unless our government does something else incredibly stupid and outlaws gasoline. Then it'll go underground.
Kevin
gruntguru
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1558
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2015 7:56 pm
Location:

Re: Who here actually drives an EV/HYBRID?

Post by gruntguru »

Belgian1979 wrote: Sun Jan 28, 2024 3:04 amYou're confusing capacity, average consumption with momentarily maximum current use vs amount of people using the maximum. If 100 houses start to consume their maximum available limit (let's say 32 A) then the fuse will go out. It is as simple as that. No amount of shit will change that.
Hang on. In your 100 house grid with a maximum power rating of 670 kW, if every house draws 2.79 A, the system is maxed out - forget about 32A!

9 houses @ 32A and your fantasy neighbourhood is done.
chimpvalet
Pro
Pro
Posts: 446
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:02 am
Location:

Re: Who here actually drives an EV/HYBRID?

Post by chimpvalet »

Are we reckoning with 240vac in this nasty discussion? Belgian 1979 lives in Belgium, where that is the case. In case it helps . . .
gruntguru
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1558
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2015 7:56 pm
Location:

Re: Who here actually drives an EV/HYBRID?

Post by gruntguru »

gruntguru wrote: Sun Jan 28, 2024 10:11 pm
Belgian1979 wrote: Sun Jan 28, 2024 3:04 amYou're confusing capacity, average consumption with momentarily maximum current use vs amount of people using the maximum. If 100 houses start to consume their maximum available limit (let's say 32 A) then the fuse will go out. It is as simple as that. No amount of shit will change that.
Hang on. In your 100 house grid with a maximum power rating of 670 kW, if every house draws 2.79 A, the system is maxed out - forget about 32A!

9 houses @ 32A and your fantasy neighbourhood is done.
Sorry. Typo in my post above. 670 kW should read 67 kW. Its so ridiculously low my finger added a zero.

Yes. 240v system. 32A x 240v x 9 houses = 69.1 kW exceeding the rated 67 kW.
Monzsta
Member
Member
Posts: 101
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:07 pm
Location:

Re: Who here actually drives an EV/HYBRID?

Post by Monzsta »

turbo camino wrote: Sat Jan 27, 2024 1:21 pm Is there a way to hide/block this subforum and this stupid thread that refuses to die from the main forum list? Why is this even here?

It's a valid topic, just not here. It's complicated. Without doubt the most complicated, complex, difficult problem anything in the known universe has ever been faced with. We're royally screwed whatever we do, because the actual solutions are off the table, and we will never do what's required.
If you click on the wrench symbol which is sandwitched between the "Post Reply" and the "Search this topic" button you can unsubscribe from the thread and you will no longer get notifications on it.

I'm not a paid member so I have no idea if you can hide the topic completely from the Active Topic view. It's already in it's own subforum.
gruntguru
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1558
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2015 7:56 pm
Location:

Re: Who here actually drives an EV/HYBRID?

Post by gruntguru »

If you can't hide it you can aways resist the temptation to click on it. Or can you?
Post Reply