Reputable links for horsepower from windage tray/crank scraper

[Kevin Johnson]

Instructive as in none of the factory V8 windage trays come anywhere close to the crank or the rods.

As I wrote earlier, there are also numerous examples from other OEMs of carefully shaped openings being used. I can remember discussing this years ago. I can accept that you do not accept this.

[ptuomov]

Instructive as in none of the factory V8 windage trays come anywhere close to the crank or the rods.

As I wrote earlier, there are also numerous examples from other OEMs of carefully shaped openings being used. I can remember discussing this years ago. I can accept that you do not accept this.

They angle the openings for sure, not arguing that. I’m arguing that they don’t put anything close to the rotating assembly in V8’s.

[makin chips]

scraper and windage tray on LS engines and you can bet GM put a lot of dyno time on this setup

That's not a crank scraper and it's actually the pan and windage tray for the LT1. Doesn't come with a scraper and never has.

https://motoiq.com/project-c7-corvette- ... t1-engine/

[makin chips]

A lot of times people do not recognize when scrapers and trays are blended together. Louvers are more obvious but the edges of the openings in the Hemi tray below serve that function. There are so many patents for this sort of thing that an OEM needs to tread carefully. NUMEROUS other examples. Examining existing technology is time consuming. OEMs are usually trying to reduce the number of components and costs.

Here's that pan installed. There are no scraping surfaces that I can identify anywhere.



There's nowhere for the crank to rotate through it and those holes surely aren't big enough to let counterweight pass through them. There are also no edges to scrape anything. It would tear that up the first time the engine rotated over once you got it close enough to the crank to even attempt to scrape the edge of a counterweight.

All of the 3g Hemi trays I find include a Teflon scraper as a separate piece <shrug> I've seen exactly none that include it in the edge of their louvers. Care to post an example that shows this without question? Because I fully question that tray having any sort of scraper on it. It's an OEM Hellcat windage tray for all intents and purposes and it's well known that they don't include a crank scraper. Neither do any 1 piece windage trays I've found. It's always a separate piece. Always. C'mon Kev. You're smarter than that. A quick look would tell you that windage tray won't scrape anything. You're one of the more intelligent people here, imo. How can you miss this so badly?

https://www.highhorseperformance.com/MO ... 5605aa.htm



Almost the exact same thing as you posted above, except 1 or 2 more holes in that one. Still not a scraper in sight. Even this aftermarket(I think) tray from Modern Muscle Extreme doesn't have one and it's supposed to be an upgrade from stock, right?

[Curtis Mc]

Almost the exact same thing as you posted above, except 1 or 2 more holes in that one. Still not a scraper in sight. Even this aftermarket(I think) tray from Modern Muscle Extreme doesn't have one and it's supposed to be an upgrade from stock, right?

This last example appears to be a modified version of the original, except it's clearanced for a stroker. I am not a G3 hemi guy, but that to me means the "stock" tray is pretty close.

[makin chips]

I believe that's the stock, OEM 6.4L Hemi tray at MME vs the 5.7L Hemi tray posted by Kevin. The long narrow, hotdog-shaped holes are for rod clearance because of the increased stroke. That would make the tray I posted between those 2 examples for a 6.1L Hemi. You've got the '6 hole' tray(5.7L), the tray that looks like the MME tray but without the rod clearancing(6.1L), and the MME tray(6.4L) with clearance for the extra stroke of the 6.4L. All OEM.

None of which have crank scrapers built into them.

Some may notice the installed 5.7L tray looks a little different than Kevin's example. The owner modified it with 4 more ribs and 4 drain holes, which are the lighter colored ribs you see on that tray. He made those himself.

[Kevin Johnson]

scraper and windage tray on LS engines and you can bet GM put a lot of dyno time on this setup

That's not a crank scraper and it's actually the pan and windage tray for the LT1. Doesn't come with a scraper and never has.

https://motoiq.com/project-c7-corvette- ... t1-engine/

The angle of attack of the louver blade is a type of scraper.

[Kevin Johnson]

...
All of the 3g Hemi trays I find include a Teflon scraper as a separate piece <shrug> I've seen exactly none that include it in the edge of their louvers. ...

Yes, I invented the Teflon scraper and made those designs; every one of the designs on my site and tens of thousands of variations.

Care to post an example that shows this without question? Because I fully question that tray having any sort of scraper on it. It's an OEM Hellcat windage tray for all intents and purposes and it's well known that they don't include a crank scraper. Neither do any 1 piece windage trays I've found. It's always a separate piece. Always. C'mon Kev. You're smarter than that. A quick look would tell you that windage tray won't scrape anything. You're one of the more intelligent people here, imo. How can you miss this so badly?

Here are two aftermarket windage tray designs for the Ford FE. One includes a scraper in the leading edge and the other is almost bilaterally symmetrical in its placement. The edge in the latter corresponds to the edge in the Hemi windows.

mil-32224_xl.jpg

F142412115.jpg

[ptuomov]

That’s not a car factory design.

[Kevin Johnson]

Instructive as in none of the factory V8 windage trays come anywhere close to the crank or the rods.

IMG_0757_cropped.jpg

[Kevin Johnson]

Different OEMs have different opinions in their engineering departments of how close a fixed object can come to the rotating assembly. I know every reader here has measured first hand how close the factory louver edges on the SR20 come to the outer surface of the counterweight, correct?

I found that value in the neighborhood of 1mm or .040". How does that compare to your measurement?

[ptuomov]

Instructive as in none of the factory V8 windage trays come anywhere close to the crank or the rods.

IMG_0757_cropped.jpg

That’s not close, I agree, if that’s what you’re trying to say. If it were close or intended to be close, the windage tray breathing hole would be profiled to be the complement of the intersection of the windage tray plane with the volume swept by the rotating assembly. But car factories don’t do that, just aftermarket parts makers do.

[ptuomov]

Different OEMs have different opinions in their engineering departments of how close a fixed object can come to the rotating assembly. I know every reader here has measured first hand how close the factory louver edges on the SR20 come to the outer surface of the counterweight, correct?

I found that value in the neighborhood of 1mm or .040". How does that compare to your measurement?

Remind me if SR20 is a large displacement V8?

[Kevin Johnson]

...
That’s not close, I agree, if that’s what you’re trying to say. ...

[Kevin Johnson]

...
Remind me if SR20 is a large displacement V8?

Willem Weertman -- he only worked on large displacement V8s right?

Oh, crap.