Who here actually drives an EV/HYBRID?

[gruntguru]

A residential grid is made up of 25 mm2 cables supplying on average 100 houses. Considering the cos phi it means 95A is available in that 3f grid. Making for a MAXIMUM DAILY supply of ca. 1600 kWh (P= sqrt 3*400*95) or 16 kWh per home.
With an electricity consumption in a car of 20 kWh per 100 km, this can hardly be considered comfortable if you also want the lights to burn, to make dinner etc.

Wow - very impressive. Use some technical terms that have zero relevance, and the forum community trembles at their own ignorance.

1. First problem is that cable CSA limits peak current yet you conclude with a per-day average. Did you know that residential evening peak consumption is about 50% higher than average consumption? And that nighttime minimum consumption (about 6 hours from 12 - 6) is 30 or 40% lower than average? The cables have to be sized for the evening peak - so even if there is zero margin, the average household consumption could still increase by 50% without upgrading those cables.

2. You have jumped ahead by 30 years to 100% EV where every one of those 100 households is charging an EV. Nobody made any claims about today's grid sustaining the demands of 30 years into the future.

3. Although you mentioned energy consumption per kilometer, you didn't convert that to a grid load. In Australia, the average household drives a total of 50 km per day which converts to 10 kW.hr per day of charging required.

So if ALL charging is done at home (no use of public or workplace chargers) and 33% of all vehicles are electric, those 100 homes will need another 330 kWh or 20% more than the 1600 kWh you state. If this was done between 12 and 6 am, the power during those hours would still be lower than the evening peak.
100 homes:
1600 kWh/24h = 67kW avg x 1.5 = 100 kW peak
67 x 0.6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . = 40kW night minimum
33 EV's x 10 kWhr /6hr . . . . . . .= 55 kW extra
40 + 55 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . = 95 kW Total power with charging

Of course 33% EV is going to take several years AND not all charging is done at home.

Do you really think the grid upstream has more capacity to spare?

No but it doesn't need to until the demand increases. I said previously that the US grid for example has previously increased capacity at 4% per year for 40 years. (Thats more than 20% in 5 years - 48% in 10 years - 119% in 20 years)

[Belgian1979]

A residential grid is made up of 25 mm2 cables supplying on average 100 houses. Considering the cos phi it means 95A is available in that 3f grid. Making for a MAXIMUM DAILY supply of ca. 1600 kWh (P= sqrt 3*400*95) or 16 kWh per home.
With an electricity consumption in a car of 20 kWh per 100 km, this can hardly be considered comfortable if you also want the lights to burn, to make dinner etc.

Wow - very impressive. Use some technical terms that have zero relevance, and the forum community trembles at their own ignorance.

1. First problem is that cable CSA limits peak current yet you conclude with a per-day average. Did you know that residential evening peak consumption is about 50% higher than average consumption? And that nighttime minimum consumption (about 6 hours from 12 - 6) is 30 or 40% lower than average? The cables have to be sized for the evening peak - so even if there is zero margin, the average household consumption could still increase by 50% without upgrading those cables.

2. You have jumped ahead by 30 years to 100% EV where every one of those 100 households is charging an EV. Nobody made any claims about today's grid sustaining the demands of 30 years into the future.

3. Although you mentioned energy consumption per kilometer, you didn't convert that to a grid load. In Australia, the average household drives a total of 50 km per day which converts to 10 kW.hr per day of charging required.

So if ALL charging is done at home (no use of public or workplace chargers) and 33% of all vehicles are electric, those 100 homes will need another 330 kWh or 20% more than the 1600 kWh you state. If this was done between 12 and 6 am, the power during those hours would still be lower than the evening peak.
100 homes:
1600 kWh/24h = 67kW avg x 1.5 = 100 kW peak
67 x 0.6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . = 40kW night minimum
33 EV's x 10 kWhr /6hr . . . . . . .= 55 kW extra
40 + 55 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . = 95 kW Total power with charging

Of course 33% EV is going to take several years AND not all charging is done at home.

Do you really think the grid upstream has more capacity to spare?

No but it doesn't need to until the demand increases. I said previously that the US grid for example has previously increased capacity at 4% per year for 40 years. (Thats more than 20% in 5 years - 48% in 10 years - 119% in 20 years)

Dude, it doesn't matter. You get X amount of kWh (NOTE the 'h' in kWh) per day, hour, minute, second and you can divide that over the users, period. If one uses more than the other, someone else has to use less. There is nothing more to it. Compare it to a pipe flowing water. Divert more water to one house and another one gets less.

Capacity in a grid is determined by the cables and by the production capacity. If you want to increase the capacity and not violate safety rules like maximum ampérage per line, you'll have to increase line sections. That means digging, large costs. And everything upstream will have to be adapted as well.
We're not talking about increasing a line of 25 mm² to 50 mm² but to 300 or 400 mm². This won't happen, at least not within the next 30 years or so. By then I'm not around anymore. Good luck with that BS.

The above only shows actually how stupid you are.

[gruntguru]

Dude, it doesn't matter. You get X amount of kWh (NOTE the 'h' in kWh) per day, hour, minute, second and you can divide that over the users, period. If one uses more than the other, someone else has to use less. There is nothing more to it. Compare it to a pipe flowing water. Divert more water to one house and another one gets less. . . . .

The above only shows actually how stupid you are. . .

Wow . . you're the electrician that doesn't know kW from kWh and you call me stupid!

kWh is a unit of energy.
kW is a unit of power.
Wire CSA limits power (current actually but power if you assume voltage is constant).

If

you get X amount of kWh (NOTE the 'h' in kWh) per day

and X = 16 then:
- you get 16/24 = 0.67 kWh per hour (note X is not 16 any more) (Also note that 0.67 kWh per hour is normally referred to as 0.67 kW and THAT is the "X" that doesn't change)
- you get 16/(24x60) = 0.011 kWh per minute (note X is still not 16 any more)
- you get 16/(24x60x60) = 0.000185 kWh per second (note X is still not 16 any more)

Now, I think your post was trying to say that the cables are sized for this consumption - 0.67 kW/house or 67 kW/100 houses. Problem is domestic consumption tends to peak around 6 pm - most of those 100 houses will have lots of stuff switched on and 67 kW is not going to cut it. So what is it?

a) Are the cables actually sized to meet the evening peak? or
b) Is there no such thing as an evening peak - the 100 houses all cooperate nicely to keep the combined consumption at 67kW?

If the answer is a) there is plenty of spare capacity in the cables to charge EV's between midnight and 6 am.

[Tom68]

Toyota still full of BS and now clutching at straws, they need to just keep making cars and sack their media department.

https://youtu.be/-EwQgJ5UY7U

[Belgian1979]

Dude, it doesn't matter. You get X amount of kWh (NOTE the 'h' in kWh) per day, hour, minute, second and you can divide that over the users, period. If one uses more than the other, someone else has to use less. There is nothing more to it. Compare it to a pipe flowing water. Divert more water to one house and another one gets less. . . . .

The above only shows actually how stupid you are. . .

Wow . . you're the electrician that doesn't know kW from kWh and you call me stupid!

kWh is a unit of energy.
kW is a unit of power.
Wire CSA limits power (current actually but power if you assume voltage is constant).

If

you get X amount of kWh (NOTE the 'h' in kWh) per day

and X = 16 then:
- you get 16/24 = 0.67 kWh per hour (note X is not 16 any more) (Also n

Idiot:

25 mm² allows maximum 100 A. With cos phi of 0,95 this means 95 A in reality.ote that 0.67 kWh per hour is normally referred to as 0.67 kW and THAT is the "X" that doesn't change)
- you get 16/(24x60) = 0.011 kWh per minute (note X is still not 16 any more)
- you get 16/(24x60x60) = 0.000185 kWh per second (note X is still not 16 any more)

Now, I think your post was trying to say that the cables are sized for this consumption - 0.67 kW/house or 67 kW/100 houses. Problem is domestic consumption tends to peak around 6 pm - most of those 100 houses will have lots of stuff switched on and 67 kW is not going to cut it. So what is it?

a) Are the cables actually sized to meet the evening peak? or
b) Is there no such thing as an evening peak - the 100 houses all cooperate nicely to keep the combined consumption at 67kW?

If the answer is a) there is plenty of spare capacity in the cables to charge EV's between midnight and 6 am.

P= U * I * Sqrt 3
P= 400 * 95A (=0,95 * 100A) * 1,73 = 65.740 W or 65,74 kW

Per hour you can thus supply 65,74 kWh (look who is the idiot here)

65,74 kWh = 1.557,76 kWh per day.
for 100 houses, which means 15,5776 kWh per day per household.

If one house would be able to draw 63A the rest will have to make due with the remaining 32A. So 32/99= 0,32A

But let's make a different calculation. Assume you load a car with 11 kW constantly. At that point ca. 6 cars of these 100 households can charge and the rest has 0A available. (to fully charge a car with an 80 kWh battery takes in this case 80/11 = 7,27 h. Assuming 24 h, you can thus load 24/7,27 * 6 = 19,80 cars. The remaining household are dead in the water.
When charging at low rate of 4 kW, you can charge 65,74/4 = 16,34 cars. Charging an 80 kWh battery in that case takes 80/4 = 20 h. Assuming 20 h of loading, you can thus charge 24/20 * 16,34 = 19,60 cars. The remaining 80 households are dead in the water.

Who's the idiot here?

[skinny z]

Is the following a bunch of EV propaganda or is Norway the real deal?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/climate/canada- ... -1.7092003

[gruntguru]

You get X amount of kWh (NOTE the 'h' in kWh) per day, hour, minute, second

Here is what you actually said. Are you sure I am the idiot?

[gruntguru]

P= U * I * Sqrt 3
P= 400 * 95A (=0,95 * 100A) * 1,73 = 65.740 W or 65,74 kW

Per hour you can thus supply 65,74 kWh (look who is the idiot here)

65,74 kWh = 1.557,76 kWh per day.
for 100 houses, which means 15,5776 kWh per day per household.

If one house would be able to draw 63A the rest will have to make due with the remaining 32A. So 32/99= 0,32A

But let's make a different calculation. Assume you load a car with 11 kW constantly. At that point ca. 6 cars of these 100 households can charge and the rest has 0A available. (to fully charge a car with an 80 kWh battery takes in this case 80/11 = 7,27 h. Assuming 24 h, you can thus load 24/7,27 * 6 = 19,80 cars. The remaining household are dead in the water.
When charging at low rate of 4 kW, you can charge 65,74/4 = 16,34 cars. Charging an 80 kWh battery in that case takes 80/4 = 20 h. Assuming 20 h of loading, you can thus charge 24/20 * 16,34 = 19,60 cars. The remaining 80 households are dead in the water.

Who's the idiot here?

The real idiot here is the one that wants to crap on about cable CSA etc.

All you really need to know is that residential power cabling is sized to meet evening peak demand and that same cabling is massively oversized between midnight and 6 am. Plenty of surplus to charge EV's during that period.

Go check your cable CSA. 25 mm² to feed 100 homes???? I think you left out a zero there Mr. Electical expert.

[gruntguru]

Is the following a bunch of EV propaganda or is Norway the real deal? https://www.cbc.ca/news/climate/canada- ... -1.7092003

Idiots!
- Don't they know the grid will collapse?
- Don't they know EVs don't work in cold climates?

[gruntguru]

Hint.
50 of those 100 houses switch on an electric kettle (and nothing else) and you suddenly have 120 kW in a system you say can only handle 65,74 kW.

[Belgian1979]

P= U * I * Sqrt 3
P= 400 * 95A (=0,95 * 100A) * 1,73 = 65.740 W or 65,74 kW

Per hour you can thus supply 65,74 kWh (look who is the idiot here)

65,74 kWh = 1.557,76 kWh per day.
for 100 houses, which means 15,5776 kWh per day per household.

If one house would be able to draw 63A the rest will have to make due with the remaining 32A. So 32/99= 0,32A

But let's make a different calculation. Assume you load a car with 11 kW constantly. At that point ca. 6 cars of these 100 households can charge and the rest has 0A available. (to fully charge a car with an 80 kWh battery takes in this case 80/11 = 7,27 h. Assuming 24 h, you can thus load 24/7,27 * 6 = 19,80 cars. The remaining household are dead in the water.
When charging at low rate of 4 kW, you can charge 65,74/4 = 16,34 cars. Charging an 80 kWh battery in that case takes 80/4 = 20 h. Assuming 20 h of loading, you can thus charge 24/20 * 16,34 = 19,60 cars. The remaining 80 households are dead in the water.

Who's the idiot here?

The real idiot here is the one that wants to crap on about cable CSA etc.

All you really need to know is that residential power cabling is sized to meet evening peak demand and that same cabling is massively oversized between midnight and 6 am. Plenty of surplus to charge EV's during that period.

Go check your cable CSA. 25 mm² to feed 100 homes???? I think you left out a zero there Mr. Electical expert.

Look at the connection for your own (residential) home main panel morron. You'll see that it is 3G or 4G25. And since there is no fuse in between your home and the cable in the street that means that it's the same section as on the main cable.

Inconvenient truth. Nothing more and nothing less.
Grid capacity is what is it irrespective of what google-wizard says.

You're a complete idiot.

[Clemson327]

To argue that a neighborhood of 100 houses only has 65-66 kW of service available makes no sense to me. This means that these houses must not be allowed to have electrical appliances, electrical HVAC, or even a hairdryer/iron for fear of causing a blackout in the entire neighborhood. Is this the case?

[skinny z]

To argue that a neighborhood of 100 houses only has 65-66 kW of service available makes no sense to me. This means that these houses must not be allowed to have electrical appliances, electrical HVAC, or even a hairdryer/iron for fear of causing a blackout in the entire neighborhood. Is this the case?

I think there's a typo somewhere.
At 66,000 watts total available (as indicated above) divided by 100 houses gets you 660 watts per household.
66,000 watts/100 homes = 660 watts
660 watts/240 volts (in Canada) = 2.75 amps!

The average electrical service in this country, when discussing single family homes, is 100 amps at 240/120 volts.
240 volts x 100 amps = 24,000 watts.
24,000 watts x 100 houses = 2,400,000 watts or 2,4000 KW.

My experience tells me that no house is running at the limit. An overnight car charger would take 1440 watts maximum when connected to a 15 amp @ 120 volts circuit (rated at 80%). The house will handle that although if 100 houses charge overnight simultaneously that's an additional 144,000 watts (144 KW) of consumption for the grid that supplies that 100 house neighbourhood. FTR, in the part of the country I live in, there are 100 engine block heaters plugged in for the same amount of time at the same power consumption level. So an overnight EV charge would simply be a block heater substitution.
That's single family home stuff where it's cold.
In other parts of this country, block heaters aren't a thing but the house service is still sized the same. An overnight charge shouldn't be taxing on the grid.
Now, when we're talking high rise buildings with parking for all, then the logistics and capability of the building in question comes very much into play. Especially if each unit in the high rise is independently metered as it is in many places. Getting a individual unit owners electrical service to supply a charging outlet in the underground parking would be all but impossible in many cases.
That's an issue unto itself.

[turbo camino]

Is there a way to hide/block this subforum and this stupid thread that refuses to die from the main forum list? Why is this even here?

It's a valid topic, just not here. It's complicated. Without doubt the most complicated, complex, difficult problem anything in the known universe has ever been faced with. We're royally screwed whatever we do, because the actual solutions are off the table, and we will never do what's required.

[skinny z]

Just keep driving your ICE like I'll do. I trust we'll still be able to buy gasoline in twenty years. Or hydrogen...