We are currently running on the new domain and server: www.Speed-Talk.com

IMPORTANT: Update your bookmarks to https://www.speed-talk.com/forum/
(Right-click the URL and select "Bookmark this link")

Fuel system architecture question (mechanical pump / filter)

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

Moderator: Team

Kevin Johnson
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 8836
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:41 am
Location:

Re: Fuel system architecture question (mechanical pump / filter)

Post by Kevin Johnson » Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:21 pm

:-k

So, maybe I missed how your tank is being vented?

On my high-tech gravity feed petcock motorcycle "pump" if the tank vent became clogged somehow ... :wink:

Edit: Just saw MadBill's mention. =D> =D> =D>

User avatar
MadBill
Guru
Guru
Posts: 14689
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:41 am
Location: The Great White North

Re: Fuel system architecture question (mechanical pump / filter)

Post by MadBill » Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:46 pm

Treed ya Kev! :lol:
Felix, qui potuit rerum cognscere causas.

Happy is he who can discover the cause of things.

Kevin Johnson
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 8836
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:41 am
Location:

Re: Fuel system architecture question (mechanical pump / filter)

Post by Kevin Johnson » Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:51 pm

Florida waters often have all sorts of nastiness blanketing them. It seems quite possible that even an emissions charcoal canister (tank vent system) could become clogged with growth. I have two turtle tanks and go through prodigious amount of activated charcoal which is promptly coated with algae. The [deposited/adsorbed vapor of the] fuel itself could be a growth medium.

I do not know the year of your magnificent Pantera boat -- does (cough -- did) it have emission controls originally?


https://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/gen ... ost3433378

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis ... 807160.pdf

Ohio Rob
New Member
New Member
Posts: 36
Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:54 pm
Location: 44090 Ohio

Re: Fuel system architecture question (mechanical pump / filter)

Post by Ohio Rob » Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:20 am

Thanks for the replies.
The tank is vented with a 5/8” hose. It is clear.

I thought about a cracked pickup tube, so I pulled the tank fitting and put some air on the vent hose (a couple PSI) and was looking for some leakage around the half of the pickup tube that is not submerged. The column of fuel rises up the tube with no air leakage.

The boat is a 1977. I restored it from the hull up. It has a brand new Florida marine tank in it. (They made the original tank). As such, the entire boat and all the rigging is from scratch.

Thanks again for all the replies and help,
Rob

Kevin Johnson
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 8836
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:41 am
Location:

Re: Fuel system architecture question (mechanical pump / filter)

Post by Kevin Johnson » Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:48 am

What happened when you put a brand new filter cartridge on? That would be the second one.



Ohio Rob wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:20 am
Thanks for the replies.
The tank is vented with a 5/8” hose. It is clear.

I thought about a cracked pickup tube, so I pulled the tank fitting and put some air on the vent hose (a couple PSI) and was looking for some leakage around the half of the pickup tube that is not submerged. The column of fuel rises up the tube with no air leakage.

The boat is a 1977. I restored it from the hull up. It has a brand new Florida marine tank in it. (They made the original tank). As such, the entire boat and all the rigging is from scratch.

Thanks again for all the replies and help,
Rob

Ohio Rob
New Member
New Member
Posts: 36
Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:54 pm
Location: 44090 Ohio

Re: Fuel system architecture question (mechanical pump / filter)

Post by Ohio Rob » Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:12 am

I just received a replacement element yesterday.
The element on the boat is the original. Boat has about 40 hours of run time on it.

Last night, I removed the filter from the circuit. I have the parts to move the filter to after the pump and mount it above the pump on the front of the cylinder head.
I’m waiting on a piece of 6061 3/8 plate to machine up a mounting bracket for it.

I figured I’d start the boat tonight with no filter, to rule out everything else.

rp930
Member
Member
Posts: 135
Joined: Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:47 pm
Location:

Re: Fuel system architecture question (mechanical pump / filter)

Post by rp930 » Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:57 am

Rob-

How did it work out?

Ohio Rob
New Member
New Member
Posts: 36
Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:54 pm
Location: 44090 Ohio

Re: Fuel system architecture question (mechanical pump / filter)

Post by Ohio Rob » Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:23 pm

rp930 wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:57 am
Rob-

How did it work out?
I’m waiting on a plate of 6061 to machine up a bracket to mount the fuel filter on the cylinder head. I have some nylon spacers to isolate the Heat transfer.

I removed the filter out of the circuit completely and still could only muster 3 PSI of pressure. I pulled the Baker fuel pump (again) and disassembled it. This time I pressed the .250 pump arm fulcrum pin out of the body and discovered that a small bushing that rides on the pin was cracked in half. This let the pump arm fall in between the two halves and resulted in the stroke being cut in half.

Here’s a pic of the broken bushing
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Ohio Rob
New Member
New Member
Posts: 36
Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:54 pm
Location: 44090 Ohio

Re: Fuel system architecture question (mechanical pump / filter)

Post by Ohio Rob » Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:31 pm

After trying to reach someone at Baker engineering with zero customer service, I bought a Holley fuel pump.

I called 4 times and was passed to an answering machine in the “tech” department. Left multiple messages and still haven’t received a return call or email.

Last call, I asked the receptionist if I could please speak to someone for just a few minutes so I could describe the broken bushing and buy a few to have on hand. Apparently, I’m the only guy who has ever had this problem (according to the lady who answers the phone) and I was Informed that they don’t sell replacement parts. I was told to box the pump up and send it off, and they would take a look when they had some time. She asked me to send photos of the broken part, and someone would call me. I sent the pics last week, and still no correspondence from Baker.

Needless to say, I was not happy with the complete lack of support.

I’ll never buy another Baker engineering product again. Not because it failed. I get that stuff breaks. I can’t deal with being run around and their lack of concern for my situation with their product.

Here’s the Holley pump.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Kevin Johnson
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 8836
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:41 am
Location:

Re: Fuel system architecture question (mechanical pump / filter)

Post by Kevin Johnson » Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:09 pm

Sorry to hear about the problems.

When you take your boat out are you running it off-shore or in inland lakes/rivers?

Did you (carefully) cut open the old fuel cartridge and check to see if it was plugged up with detritus?

I am just concerned about association and causation: root cause failure analysis generally. A pump could have infancy failure if overly stressed.

Being stuck adrift in the open ocean pondering this anew could be life-threatening.

Ohio Rob
New Member
New Member
Posts: 36
Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:54 pm
Location: 44090 Ohio

Re: Fuel system architecture question (mechanical pump / filter)

Post by Ohio Rob » Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:45 am

Kevin Johnson wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:09 pm
Sorry to hear about the problems.

When you take your boat out are you running it off-shore or in inland lakes/rivers?

Did you (carefully) cut open the old fuel cartridge and check to see if it was plugged up with detritus?

I am just concerned about association and causation: root cause failure analysis generally. A pump could have infancy failure if overly stressed.

Being stuck adrift in the open ocean pondering this anew could be life-threatening.
The boat gets used on the west end of Lake Erie. I have marine towing insurance.

I didn’t cut the old filter open, but I did squirt fuel into the outer perimeter of the filter with a squirt bottle and it immediately transfers to the inside of the cartridge. I may cut it open and check, as I have a new element on hand.

Thanks for the reply

Kevin Johnson
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 8836
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:41 am
Location:

Re: Fuel system architecture question (mechanical pump / filter)

Post by Kevin Johnson » Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:10 am

Ohio Rob wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:45 am
...
The boat gets used on the west end of Lake Erie. I have marine towing insurance.

I didn’t cut the old filter open, but I did squirt fuel into the outer perimeter of the filter with a squirt bottle and it immediately transfers to the inside of the cartridge. I may cut it open and check, as I have a new element on hand.

Thanks for the reply
That's a much safer situation. Cell phones and beacons make a big difference nowadays.

In 1976 our family boat hit and rode up on the breakwater outside Calumet Harbor after the Bicentennial Fireworks. For some reason navigational lights had been turned off marking it. I had to use a flashlight to signal SOS to passing boats. Lake Erie used to be much worse but there have been significant algae blooms there recently and growth or contamination of fuel is a nationwide issue.

I was sitting facing the stern and suddenly the engine went into full reverse and lifted out of the water. Then BAM. Good times.

dannobee
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 243
Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:01 pm
Location:

Re: Fuel system architecture question (mechanical pump / filter)

Post by dannobee » Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:09 am

Glad you figured it out. I kinda figured that it wasn't your original filter setup.

On marine applications, is the vent on the fuel pump supposed to go into the intake tract?

Ohio Rob
New Member
New Member
Posts: 36
Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:54 pm
Location: 44090 Ohio

Re: Fuel system architecture question (mechanical pump / filter)

Post by Ohio Rob » Wed Jul 08, 2020 12:12 pm

dannobee wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:09 am
Glad you figured it out. I kinda figured that it wasn't your original filter setup.

On marine applications, is the vent on the fuel pump supposed to go into the intake tract?
Yes, that screened vent is screwed into an 1/8” NPT. I have a barbed 1/8”NPT fitting that I have a line on that terminates in the air cleaner base.

Post Reply