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Why no Ardun hemi head SBC conversion?

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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panic
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Re: Why no Ardun hemi head SBC conversion?

Post by panic »

Chrysler's first hemi was almost a dimensional copy, just short of it being interchangeable

Just that tiny difference: every single dimension is miles off.
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Re: Why no Ardun hemi head SBC conversion?

Post by PackardV8 »

RCJ wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:45 pm My dad drove a flathead delivery truck way back when. He told some good stories about how underpowered and always running hot they were.
Back in the dark ages, a friend's father had a contract to haul mail. He'd buy a new Ford truck every three years. It would need a valve job at 50,000 and a complete rebuild at 75,000. He'd make an appointment at the dealership and drop the truck off at 5 P.M. They'd swap in a rebuilt engine and he'd pick it up tuned and ready to go at 8 A.M.
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Re: Why no Ardun hemi head SBC conversion?

Post by peejay »

Mark O'Neal wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:36 pm
NormS wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:23 pm The story I heard, was that at the start of WW2, some of our smaller tanks were built with the flathead Ford V8, and that more power was needed because of the weight of the tank. The Ardun heads evidently took care of that problem.
Ford built a 1,000ci hemi engine for tanks in WWII.
It was a DOHC, 4-valve design, not a hemi, and had shaft driven camshafts and all sorts of innovations. Also, the largest single aluminum casting in the world, at the time.

And it was designed as a V12, not an eight, because Ford wanted to sell engines for warbirds. Problem was that very few people wanted liquid cooled engines and Allison (and Rolls-Royce) had that market locked up tight. So they hacked a third off and marketed it as a tank engine. At least it was so overbuilt that no tanks ever fell out of the sky! :lol:

IIRC towards the end of the war they did make a few V12s for tanks, too.
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Re: Why no Ardun hemi head SBC conversion?

Post by panic »

they hacked a third off

Makes it sound like actually shortening the parts will do it.
Completely different crankshaft: V12 is usually either a 60° block, or 90° block + 30° pin offset, V8 is usually a 90° block.
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Re: Why no Ardun hemi head SBC conversion?

Post by Krooser »

PackardV8 wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:14 pm
RCJ wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:45 pm My dad drove a flathead delivery truck way back when. He told some good stories about how underpowered and always running hot they were.
Back in the dark ages, a friend's father had a contract to haul mail. He'd buy a new Ford truck every three years. It would need a valve job at 50,000 and a complete rebuild at 75,000. He'd make an appointment at the dealership and drop the truck off at 5 P.M. They'd swap in a rebuilt engine and he'd pick it up tuned and ready to go at 8 A.M.
There were plenty of steel haulers in Ohio and PA that worked the same way until the late 70's.

I used to haul out of the Jones and Laughlin pipe mill in Aliquipa, PA and I got to know one guy who had a 427 Ford gas job.

My worn out Cummins would out pull him on the hills but lookout on the flats...
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Re: Why no Ardun hemi head SBC conversion?

Post by Mark O'Neal »

Truckedup wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:12 pm
Mark O'Neal wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:11 pm For fords....or LS...since their the same engine...there is always Greg Brown's Hammerhead Hemi conversion.

927 NA hp from a 427ci Ford.....and I've heard a couple of guys have done over 1,000 na.

An LS should at least double that....... :lol:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyP_jhv ... e=emb_logo
Hammerhead also makes hemi heads for the LS..
Same head...and that's why I said it.
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Re: Why no Ardun hemi head SBC conversion?

Post by Krooser »

PackardV8 wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:14 pm
RCJ wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:45 pm My dad drove a flathead delivery truck way back when. He told some good stories about how underpowered and always running hot they were.
Back in the dark ages, a friend's father had a contract to haul mail. He'd buy a new Ford truck every three years. It would need a valve job at 50,000 and a complete rebuild at 75,000. He'd make an appointment at the dealership and drop the truck off at 5 P.M. They'd swap in a rebuilt engine and he'd pick it up tuned and ready to go at 8 A.M.
There were plenty of steel haulers in Ohio and PA that worked the same way until the late 70's.

I used to haul out of the Jones and Laughlin pipe mill in Aliquipa, PA and I got to know one guy who had a 427 Ford gas job.

My worn out Cummins would out pull him on the hills but lookout on the flats...
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Re: Why no Ardun hemi head SBC conversion?

Post by Truckedup »

Ford never used a FE larger than the 391 in big trucks....Larger engines were 401 to 534 used in Super Duty versions..
When construction was slow in the late 70's I worked in a truck repair garage doing mostly suspension and air brakes...The medium duty trucks with car based engines , Ford FE, Dodge BB and Chevy BB had engine lives of around 100K miles if maintained . IHC lasted somewhat longer...Of course some wore out sooner or lasted longer...
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Re: Why no Ardun hemi head SBC conversion?

Post by peejay »

panic wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:29 pm they hacked a third off

Makes it sound like actually shortening the parts will do it.
Completely different crankshaft: V12 is usually either a 60° block, or 90° block + 30° pin offset, V8 is usually a 90° block.
Of course they would rejigger the cam and crank ordering. But it was a 60 degree engine, because of its original design as a V12. And, as noted, it was at the time the world's largest single aluminum casting, the crankcase and cylinders were an assembly instead of separate units bolted together.
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Re: Why no Ardun hemi head SBC conversion?

Post by n2omike »

I think the Captain Obvious answer as to why Ardun never made heads for the SBC, is the SBC already had overhead valves! That, and it came out later than the flathead Ford... when everyone else was coming out with overhead valves as well.
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Re: Why no Ardun hemi head SBC conversion?

Post by jacksoni »

The Infinity V8 DOHC head will fit a SBC. Just have to build a cam drive and deal with water and oil. I've done it with a 4 cyl block that is equivalent of half a V8 (SD Pontiac). It makes 293hp out of 122ci.
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Re: Why no Ardun hemi head SBC conversion?

Post by Ron E »

n2omike wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:31 am I think the Captain Obvious answer as to why Ardun never made heads for the SBC, is the SBC already had overhead valves! That, and it came out later than the flathead Ford... when everyone else was coming out with overhead valves as well.
That and doesn't the flathead have only 3 main bearings. So, how hard would one want to push it?
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Re: Why no Ardun hemi head SBC conversion?

Post by piston guy »

Pete1 wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:17 pm As a bit of trivia, In the 60's Ed iskenderian made several sets of single cam (per head) desmodromic heads for the SBC. They were very successful in tests.
He advertised them in several magazines for a brief period but apparently the market was not ready for them so he didn't persue it. That would have been far better than Ardun's. Next best thing to F1 valve train....
I was building desmo Ducati's at the time so was very interested in that project. I talk to Ed once in awhile so next time I will see if I can get more info.
So did Neil (Whitey) Theusen. ( SBC conversion) IIRC Charley Hayes tested the engine (SBC) at Riverside in the every early 60's . The assembly was so smooth you could hold the single cylinder test fixture in your hand a 10,000 rpm
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Re: Why no Ardun hemi head SBC conversion?

Post by Truckedup »

Pete1 wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:17 pm As a bit of trivia, In the 60's Ed iskenderian made several sets of single cam (per head) desmodromic heads for the SBC. They were very successful in tests.
He advertised them in several magazines for a brief period but apparently the market was not ready for them so he didn't persue it. That would have been far better than Ardun's. Next best thing to F1 valve train....
I was building desmo Ducati's at the time so was very interested in that project. I talk to Ed once in awhile so next time I will see if I can get more info.
Far as I know Ducati is the only production desmodromic valve action. More of a tradition now that valve springs are reliable at high rpms...I like Ducatis so have to have the patience for valve adjustments when necessary

http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/desmodromic.html
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Re: Why no Ardun hemi head SBC conversion?

Post by Pete1 »

I talked to Isky and he said he dropped development of those heads because of not enough interest to afford to develop them.
He doesn't know where any of them are now.
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