Ring Pack Thickness: Question

[skinny z]

Several years ago I had a discussion with Alan Patterson about ring thickness. I mentioned that we had picked up ~35 hp by switching from 0.042 to a 0.036 ring and he shared that going thinner would yield even larger gains. I don't recall the exact thickness he mentioned, thinking it was somewhere around 0.026. As others have already pointed out, thinner is better regardless if it's OEM or racing application.

They use a lot of .9mm/.9mm/2mm

There's too much evidence to support any reason for using what we used before.
Except for:
1) What's it worth to me?
2) What can I get and how long am I prepared to wait for it?

That last question carries the most weight. As an example, as quoted from my engine shop's email reply earlier today "the Wiseco PTS503A4 no stock due end of February 621.28 plus freight from Ontario."
If that delivery date is true, (and it isn't, trust me) I'm prepared to wait. Lots to do in the meantime.

[rustbucket79]

Those Pro Tru’s come with Hastings rings as well included in that price making them a great value. The only reason I would intentionally search out exotic eyelash ring sets is if I was building a maximum effort “class” engine.

If someone wants to post evidence that a ring set under 1/16 is worth more than 5 HP on a typical street/strip 350……

[Momus]

You would be hard pressed to find a modern engine with compression rings thicker than 1.2 1.2 and a 3 mm oil ring.

Many are 1-1 2.0 oil and have 5 or 7 warranties; the engines are out lasting the rest of the car.

[RCJ]

I would say 5hp would be about right. Some of it might come from a better piston design. What I’ve seen is the hp gain everywhere in the hp ban.

[dannobee]

Now, if thin rings allow the rotating assembly to spin like this, I'm all in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aYJxjp0src


But, I believe that's a Super Stock engine by Patterson. Certainly more to it than the ring pack. Like $45000 more.

That said, were talking 1/64" in the difference. It counts for something but again, how much?

Anyone else here test the rotating torque of their assembled engines? We did it for years and even quantified the power difference. We used a beam type torque wrench on everything. Inch/lb on the crank (with rear main seal installed), ft lb on short block and assembled engine. What I considered "low" rotational torque was about 15 lb ft on a short block. Skinny rings significantly reduced the rotating torque. On the dyno when we tested, a 10 ft lb reduction yielded 3-4 lb ft increase in torque output, fwiw. Even skinnier rings are available now than back then. And nobody here seems to be talking about omitting the second ring.

[PSA]

For something that you use a lot the benefits of improving fuel consumption can pay for some as well, a hp of fuel is getting expensive these days.

I believe Total Seal mentioned that they had made 0.6mm rings, not sure for what though.

[fabr]

For something that you use a lot the benefits of improving fuel consumption can pay for some as well, a hp of fuel is getting expensive these days.

I believe Total Seal mentioned that they had made 0.6mm rings, not sure for what though.

Must be what donclark above mentioned. Damn those are thin .

[dannobee]

0.011" (0.3mm) is the thinnest that I've personally heard.

The LT4 corvette has 0.8mm rings right from the factory with a 60K powertrain warranty, so we KNOW we can go way thinner than that.

I'm waiting for no ring pistons, like the Cox 049 engines I took apart when I was a kid.

[skinny z]

I'm waiting for no ring pistons, like the Cox 049 engines I took apart when I was a kid.

I envied the 049 guys. All I had was the 020.

[skinny z]

Those Pro Tru’s come with Hastings rings as well included in that price making them a great value. The only reason I would intentionally search out exotic eyelash ring sets is if I was building a maximum effort “class” engine.

If someone wants to post evidence that a ring set under 1/16 is worth more than 5 HP on a typical street/strip 350……

These are top of the list at the moment.
No stock until March from the shop's supplier.
CNC Motorsports has them listed and they're sitting in my shopping cart. I won't pull the trigger until:
1) They confirm inventory
2) The machine shop is ok with my end around.

That last point posted above was the direction of this thread in the first place. Some interesting evidence posted which support the benefit but also illustrate how much benefit there is.

Yeah. Typical street/strip (and maybe an open road event or two) 357. Nothing fancy. RPM's limited to less than 6500. I can't see the heads supporting much beyond 450 HP which by most accounts isn't unreasonable.
Of course that'll depend on the rest of the supporting parts and which way I tend to lean.

[Momus]

For something that you use a lot the benefits of improving fuel consumption can pay for some as well, a hp of fuel is getting expensive these days.

I believe Total Seal mentioned that they had made 0.6mm rings, not sure for what though.

Must be what donclark above mentioned. Damn those are thin .

Nascar

[rustbucket79]

Those Pro Tru’s come with Hastings rings as well included in that price making them a great value. The only reason I would intentionally search out exotic eyelash ring sets is if I was building a maximum effort “class” engine.

If someone wants to post evidence that a ring set under 1/16 is worth more than 5 HP on a typical street/strip 350……

These are top of the list at the moment.
No stock until March from the shop's supplier.
CNC Motorsports has them listed and they're sitting in my shopping cart. I won't pull the trigger until:
1) They confirm inventory
2) The machine shop is ok with my end around.

That last point posted above was the direction of this thread in the first place. Some interesting evidence posted which support the benefit but also illustrate how much benefit there is.

Yeah. Typical street/strip (and maybe an open road event or two) 357. Nothing fancy. RPM's limited to less than 6500. I can't see the heads supporting much beyond 450 HP which by most accounts isn't unreasonable.
Of course that'll depend on the rest of the supporting parts and which way I tend to lean.

And that was why I mentioned the potential gains. A decent sportsman style build typically doesn’t warrant a $1000+ ring set, nor the custom pistons built to run them.

[skinny z]

For something that you use a lot the benefits of improving fuel consumption can pay for some as well, a hp of fuel is getting expensive these days.

I believe Total Seal mentioned that they had made 0.6mm rings, not sure for what though.

Must be what donclark above mentioned. Damn those are thin .

Nascar

Off topic maybe but what were the Nascar engines of the 70's/80's using for this? I can imagine the thinking was fairly far advanced for what it was.

[rfoll]

Those Pro Tru’s come with Hastings rings as well included in that price making them a great value. The only reason I would intentionally search out exotic eyelash ring sets is if I was building a maximum effort “class” engine.

If someone wants to post evidence that a ring set under 1/16 is worth more than 5 HP on a typical street/strip 350……

These are top of the list at the moment.
No stock until March from the shop's supplier.
CNC Motorsports has them listed and they're sitting in my shopping cart. I won't pull the trigger until:
1) They confirm inventory
2) The machine shop is ok with my end around.

That last point posted above was the direction of this thread in the first place. Some interesting evidence posted which support the benefit but also illustrate how much benefit there is.

Yeah. Typical street/strip (and maybe an open road event or two) 357. Nothing fancy. RPM's limited to less than 6500. I can't see the heads supporting much beyond 450 HP which by most accounts isn't unreasonable.
Of course that'll depend on the rest of the supporting parts and which way I tend to lean.

And that was why I mentioned the potential gains. A decent sportsman style build typically doesn’t warrant a $1000+ ring set, nor the custom pistons built to run them.

This is more or less what I was trying to say earlier. 5 HP at what rpm? I have played with some of the L31 Vortec stuff, and the 1.5 mm rings are steel with a low drag 3 mm oil ring.

[skinny z]

CNC Motorsports has them listed and they're sitting in my shopping cart. I won't pull the trigger until:
1) They confirm inventory.

Swing and a miss.
I'll see if the shop has better luck.