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128 my take, anybody see it like this ?

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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Tom Walker
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Re: 128 my take, anybody see it like this ?

Post by Tom Walker »

Why should our discussions have to become personal and demeaning?

We are all adults, if you have a different opinion or view, that is awesome, why can’t we express that thought in a respect way?

We have a tremendous community here with some of the most talented and knowledgeable people in this industry. Let’s speak to and about each other in a way that reflects that.
hoffman900
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Re: 128 my take, anybody see it like this ?

Post by hoffman900 »

Tom Walker wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:35 pm Why should our discussions have to become personal and demeaning?

We are all adults, if you have a different opinion or view, that is awesome, why can’t we express that thought in a respect way?

We have a tremendous community here with some of the most talented and knowledgeable people in this industry. Let’s speak to and about each other in a way that reflects that.
This whole thing with David and how to pick cams debate has been going on here for over ten years. You have had Mike Jones, the late Harold Brookshire, even guys like Jay Wiles (of Hendricks), and Billy Godbold elsewhere specifically say the events matter, not LSA and “overlap is what it is”, and when either they have said it themselves or this has been pointed out, a bunch of people who probably couldn’t tell you what acceleration or jerk is and why it’s important swoop in and make it personal, and now we have DV making ridiculous videos on Youtube to an audience that appears in the comments to be fans of his and don’t know why what th debate even is. I bet if I add up all the 128 threads, we would be over 100 pages of this here and this all could have been taken care of in a single page of posts. IMO, this has chased away a lot of smart people here over the years who have no interest in arguing with people who don’t want to learn.
-Bob
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Re: 128 my take, anybody see it like this ?

Post by Tom Walker »

There are many opinions and theory’s that I have seen expressed here that I personally find false or based on urban legends from long ago.
Sometimes I just smile and go on to the next thread, but all I am trying to express is, as a human being, I try to treat them with some respect and dignity even as I may totally disagree with their ideas.

I am not saying I would be dishonest and insincere with them about my disagreement with them, I am just saying I would try to do it in a respectful way. That’s all I was trying to communicate.
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Re: 128 my take, anybody see it like this ?

Post by Tartilla »

hoffman900 wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:48 pm
Tom Walker wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:35 pm Why should our discussions have to become personal and demeaning?

We are all adults, if you have a different opinion or view, that is awesome, why can’t we express that thought in a respect way?

We have a tremendous community here with some of the most talented and knowledgeable people in this industry. Let’s speak to and about each other in a way that reflects that.
This whole thing with David and how to pick cams debate has been going on here for over ten years. You have had Mike Jones, the late Harold Brookshire, even guys like Jay Wiles (of Hendricks), and Billy Godbold elsewhere specifically say the events matter, not LSA and “overlap is what it is”, and when either they have said it themselves or this has been pointed out, a bunch of people who probably couldn’t tell you what acceleration or jerk is and why it’s important swoop in and make it personal, and now we have DV making ridiculous videos on Youtube to an audience that appears in the comments to be fans of his and don’t know why what th debate even is. I bet if I add up all the 128 threads, we would be over 100 pages of this here and this all could have been taken care of in a single page of posts. IMO, this has chased away a lot of smart people here over the years who have no interest in arguing with people who don’t want to learn.
Well said.

What is clear, is there is a lot of unknowns about the internal combustion engine, even on our 3rd decade into the 21st Century.

I for one, am ecstatic about that. There are still some milestones to be had in the search for the best mileage or the highest HP. We've come out of the dark ages of the late '70s to mid '90s.

As enthusiasts, arguably the best and most enjoyable engines we'll ever build up will be the very first few. Steep learning curves, harvesting knowledge, the pitfalls, and the Frankenstein experience of creating mechanical life.

To guide us, where would we be? Without Smokey Yunick...David Vizard...etc...and all the racing pioneers that became entrepreneurs....making parts for us to get after it.

Right or wrong, DV is trying to make cam selection... something that is rather complicated, easier to end up with an effective solution. In my view, that is commendable.

One factor on the 128 formula, I would like to see more data that speaks to exactly what is being achieved, vs just more power that is left on the table from sub optimal cam events.

So with an LSA suitable for the CID and valves etc, is that power from better efficiency...or just ends up using more F/A charge? Will it drop the BSFC?

For me, on my current marine engine build, I'm limited in Max HP somewhat...so I don't blow out the transmission or outdrive. ...and doing 65-70mph in a Formula 233 is likely fast enough.

500HP from a 406 SBC @ 5700 ish. I'd likely settle with 450, but if I shoot for the 500, I'll be more likely to attain the 450-475.

Most of my thoughts are on part throttle running. Where higher CR is a benefit. High vacuum, and pumping losses. Getting a really low BSFC is one of the primary goals.

The 128 Formula is just a tool for me to use. As is TM...Pipe Max....and some good engine software. I'm looking forward to Pipe Max...as it seems to list the harmonics of the intake and exhaust. Where I can tune my system to be the most efficient at a good cruise speed.

I'm grateful for the DV vids he is producing. Dude just had brain surgery, lost his daughter tragically, and is still getting after it. We're fortunate we had an engineer willing to write to us as enthusiasts for all these years. Thank you for your voice David.
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Re: 128 my take, anybody see it like this ?

Post by Geoff2 »

Stan,
I will dig out the article re: 19,200 cam tests.

Tom68,
Nonsense to say advice comes with bias as a blanket statement.
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Re: 128 my take, anybody see it like this ?

Post by juuhanaa »

steve cowan wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:59 pm
skinny z wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:17 am
ClassAct wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:08 am

If you are willing to learn to tune (we never stop learning do we??) you can easily get a “tight” LSA very driveable.
I think it's important to think in terms of overlap rather than LSA.
We know that the same LSA number could be very different in terms of EVC and IVO.
And I agree 100% with the carb tuning.
This is why I'm comfortable with 72 degrees of seat to seat overlap whereas I know of those that found it unfriendly on the street. That was 288/294 on a 110 (106 ICL).
Kevin,
Are you looking at degrees of overlap # because of the duration you want to use? I am trying to work out what the advantage is with more overlap/ low lift flow .
Hi,

I read Kevin replied to you, but i just wanted to add something. More overlap in crank degrees and more time we have kick start the intake. As for 128 rule, a smaller valve gets tighter LSA. Port volume and valve curtain area becomes a factors.

Changing a cam on a dyno only tells what works in that engine, so the more cams differ and less dyno tells about that combo.
A balanced person dares to stagger, and modify ports bigger
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Re: 128 my take, anybody see it like this ?

Post by Stan Weiss »

hoffman900 wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:48 pm
Tom Walker wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:35 pm Why should our discussions have to become personal and demeaning?

We are all adults, if you have a different opinion or view, that is awesome, why can’t we express that thought in a respect way?

We have a tremendous community here with some of the most talented and knowledgeable people in this industry. Let’s speak to and about each other in a way that reflects that.
This whole thing with David and how to pick cams debate has been going on here for over ten years. You have had Mike Jones, the late Harold Brookshire, even guys like Jay Wiles (of Hendricks), and Billy Godbold elsewhere specifically say the events matter, not LSA and “overlap is what it is”, and when either they have said it themselves or this has been pointed out, a bunch of people who probably couldn’t tell you what acceleration or jerk is and why it’s important swoop in and make it personal, and now we have DV making ridiculous videos on Youtube to an audience that appears in the comments to be fans of his and don’t know why what th debate even is. I bet if I add up all the 128 threads, we would be over 100 pages of this here and this all could have been taken care of in a single page of posts. IMO, this has chased away a lot of smart people here over the years who have no interest in arguing with people who don’t want to learn.
Bob,
There is an old adage or proverb about giving a man a fish or teaching him how to fish.

DV is trying to teach people to fish.

During all of these threads there been those who keep saying you will not catch a fish that way, yet no one else has tried to teach people to fish.

You can tell them that it will not work in the Great Lakes or the middle of the Ocean and they will just come back and say but it is working in my small pond.

Only a very few are Captain Ahab looking for Moby-Dick (That very last HP) :lol:

Stan
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Re: 128 my take, anybody see it like this ?

Post by Bigchief632 »

Stan Weiss wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:25 am
hoffman900 wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:48 pm
Tom Walker wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:35 pm Why should our discussions have to become personal and demeaning?

We are all adults, if you have a different opinion or view, that is awesome, why can’t we express that thought in a respect way?

We have a tremendous community here with some of the most talented and knowledgeable people in this industry. Let’s speak to and about each other in a way that reflects that.
This whole thing with David and how to pick cams debate has been going on here for over ten years. You have had Mike Jones, the late Harold Brookshire, even guys like Jay Wiles (of Hendricks), and Billy Godbold elsewhere specifically say the events matter, not LSA and “overlap is what it is”, and when either they have said it themselves or this has been pointed out, a bunch of people who probably couldn’t tell you what acceleration or jerk is and why it’s important swoop in and make it personal, and now we have DV making ridiculous videos on Youtube to an audience that appears in the comments to be fans of his and don’t know why what th debate even is. I bet if I add up all the 128 threads, we would be over 100 pages of this here and this all could have been taken care of in a single page of posts. IMO, this has chased away a lot of smart people here over the years who have no interest in arguing with people who don’t want to learn.
Bob,
There is an old adage or proverb about giving a man a fish or teaching him how to fish.

DV is trying to teach people to fish.

During all of these threads there been those who keep saying you will not catch a fish that way, yet no one else has tried to teach people to fish.

You can tell them that it will not work in the Great Lakes or the middle of the Ocean and they will just come back and say but it is working in my small pond.

Only a very few are Captain Ahab looking for Moby-Dick (That very last HP) :lol:

Stan
We all know how to fish. To use your analogy, regarding 128 for the fishing example, tie a hook to some string, put some kind of bait on it, throw it in the water and wait for a fish to come along and eat it. That's about how useful it is. Obviously fishing can get much more elaborate, as can cam selection.
Maximum power using simple logic and common sense
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Re: 128 my take, anybody see it like this ?

Post by Bigchief632 »

Stan Weiss wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:30 pm
Geoff2 wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 7:05 pm D. Vizard claims in his SBC book that he has tested well over 10,000 cam combinations in 40 yrs of cam testing. In another publication, he says the number 19,200 cams.
I have no reason to doubt either claim. Has anybody tested more?
I know this much: I will take his advice until I find someone who has tested more...
I would be interested in the source of that information.

I have talked with David about this and what I was told was, over 10,000 dyno pulls testing cams. Each cam was tested with different phasing and other changes in each test engine. There were 3 test engines, each was different from each other. It has been a while seen we talked about this but I seem to remember they did a good number of tests per day.

Stan

So where is this dyno he has? If he had a dyno, wouldn't you think his videos would be full of him running "his" dyno and showing us all this data to back up his claims, to gain credibility and shut everyone up? Asking for a friend. It really is that simple.
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