Which rings will save this?
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Which rings will save this?
Hi, this is my first post so bear with me.
I built an engine for an old Vette using a 1972 4 bolt main truck block. It was a standard bore virgin block. I am out in the boonies so only one machine shop close and I had them punch it .030 over. I got it back, checked all bores with a good bore gauge and they were all spot on. I used Icon forged pistons with 1/16 inch rings. The pistons came with Hastings plasma moly ductile iron rings. Not knowing any better I slathered all (rings pistons & cylinders), in Valvoline VR1 high zinc oil and assembled. I used a scat forged 327 crank & rods, a mild (300HP) cam, edelbrock carb and performer manifold. I primed engine, filled carb, static set timing and lit it off. Fired right up, bumped to 1800 for cam break in and immediately oil smoke started. That didn't alarm me at first, but when it hadn't cleared in 15 minutes I new something was wrong. At 25 minutes I had idled it, set timing, mixed idle and shut it off. I pulled the intake and it had sucked the gaskets and flooded most cylinders with oil. I have since dumped the aluminum intake, which checked at .003" narrow at the bottom and replaced it with a 1965 square bore chevy iron manifold off of a 65 327. That one checked at .003" positive. Bolted that all up, fired it up and it seemed good, untill it got fully warmed up. Then the oil smoke came back. I had already dumped the oil with the break in additive and filled with VR1 20/50. I went out and drove it like I stole it. Just a lot of reasonably hard pulls and coast downs. At 200 miles it still smokes bad. Mainly after deceleration, or taking off from a stop, or any time you jump on it there is some. In 40 miles it will burn an 1/8 off the stick. So I tore it down again, intake seated no leaks. Valve guides are new, sealed and look good. Exhaust full of oil. I tore the motor completely down and it appears that the shop did not use a torque plate. I want to clean this up, and get some rings in it that will work. finding another shop, re-boring and getting new pistons is not workable for me now. I have three ring options. Plain old phosphate coated cast iron, plasma moly iron and plasma moly ductile iron. I am not sure if these rings didn't seat because of too much oil, or the distortions in the bore keep them from working. What might work? I have a new 240 flex hone and a new 320 flex hone, and all of the rings are available to me. Here are some pictures of the bore.
I built an engine for an old Vette using a 1972 4 bolt main truck block. It was a standard bore virgin block. I am out in the boonies so only one machine shop close and I had them punch it .030 over. I got it back, checked all bores with a good bore gauge and they were all spot on. I used Icon forged pistons with 1/16 inch rings. The pistons came with Hastings plasma moly ductile iron rings. Not knowing any better I slathered all (rings pistons & cylinders), in Valvoline VR1 high zinc oil and assembled. I used a scat forged 327 crank & rods, a mild (300HP) cam, edelbrock carb and performer manifold. I primed engine, filled carb, static set timing and lit it off. Fired right up, bumped to 1800 for cam break in and immediately oil smoke started. That didn't alarm me at first, but when it hadn't cleared in 15 minutes I new something was wrong. At 25 minutes I had idled it, set timing, mixed idle and shut it off. I pulled the intake and it had sucked the gaskets and flooded most cylinders with oil. I have since dumped the aluminum intake, which checked at .003" narrow at the bottom and replaced it with a 1965 square bore chevy iron manifold off of a 65 327. That one checked at .003" positive. Bolted that all up, fired it up and it seemed good, untill it got fully warmed up. Then the oil smoke came back. I had already dumped the oil with the break in additive and filled with VR1 20/50. I went out and drove it like I stole it. Just a lot of reasonably hard pulls and coast downs. At 200 miles it still smokes bad. Mainly after deceleration, or taking off from a stop, or any time you jump on it there is some. In 40 miles it will burn an 1/8 off the stick. So I tore it down again, intake seated no leaks. Valve guides are new, sealed and look good. Exhaust full of oil. I tore the motor completely down and it appears that the shop did not use a torque plate. I want to clean this up, and get some rings in it that will work. finding another shop, re-boring and getting new pistons is not workable for me now. I have three ring options. Plain old phosphate coated cast iron, plasma moly iron and plasma moly ductile iron. I am not sure if these rings didn't seat because of too much oil, or the distortions in the bore keep them from working. What might work? I have a new 240 flex hone and a new 320 flex hone, and all of the rings are available to me. Here are some pictures of the bore.
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Re: Which rings will save this?
Not my first post, just a long post, sorry, that is what I meant to type.
Re: Which rings will save this?
Hiya,
Nothing wrong with Hastings rings. Definitely not honed with a torque plate, not a big deal but is relevant. Is it possible you installed the second ring upside down? Easy to do if you don't know. Next, I would confirm the valve stem seals are the correct size. It does sound more like a valve stem seal issue since the intake manifold has been checked.
Nothing wrong with Hastings rings. Definitely not honed with a torque plate, not a big deal but is relevant. Is it possible you installed the second ring upside down? Easy to do if you don't know. Next, I would confirm the valve stem seals are the correct size. It does sound more like a valve stem seal issue since the intake manifold has been checked.
Heat is energy, energy is horsepower...but you gotta control the heat.
-Carl
-Carl
Re: Which rings will save this?
The rings are all DOT up and not broken. No evidence of oil coming down the valves, tons of oil out the exhaust, wet oil at back end of exhaust.In-Tech wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 5:53 pm Hiya,
Nothing wrong with Hastings rings. Definitely not honed with a torque plate, not a big deal but is relevant. Is it possible you installed the second ring upside down? Easy to do if you don't know. Next, I would confirm the valve stem seals are the correct size. It does sound more like a valve stem seal issue since the intake manifold has been checked.
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Re: Which rings will save this?
I believe the issue is not the rings or a lack of plate honing. I suspect that you are drawing oil in from a vacuum source. Could be a intake gasket, loose/cracked guide etc....Are all of the exhaust ports full of oil? Factory 1972 heads or aftermarket?
Re: Which rings will save this?
What heads and breathers are you running ?
Head bolt humps in the bore create blowby, although I have seen an oil burning 400 that had bigger humps in the bore than yours, put cast rings in it, made it acceptable.
Head bolt humps in the bore create blowby, although I have seen an oil burning 400 that had bigger humps in the bore than yours, put cast rings in it, made it acceptable.
Last edited by Tom68 on Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ignorance leads to confidence more often than knowledge does.
Nah, I'm not leaving myself out of the ignorant brigade....at times.
Nah, I'm not leaving myself out of the ignorant brigade....at times.
Re: Which rings will save this?
I would use your three-legged trapezoid hone with duct tape inside out over the stones inside 400 wet-or-dry with a trickle of water from a garden hose and polish the cylinders. Use the Hastings moly rings.
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Re: Which rings will save this?
I have seen extreme oil usage from the PCV valve.
It was positioned right over the stream of oil from the pushrod.
Coarse grit finish hone can wear the moly face off rings but this does not seem to bother the oil ring.
I did read instructions on some thin oil rings that the center expander gap needs to face up.
You can bolt your intake up on 1 side without a gasket and measure the other side and see if you are angled correctly.
It was positioned right over the stream of oil from the pushrod.
Coarse grit finish hone can wear the moly face off rings but this does not seem to bother the oil ring.
I did read instructions on some thin oil rings that the center expander gap needs to face up.
You can bolt your intake up on 1 side without a gasket and measure the other side and see if you are angled correctly.
Re: Which rings will save this?
It is not the intake, that has been verified, the heads are 1968 921 new guides and seals, everything clean. Not all exhaust ports full of oil, one on left bank, three on right. All show a little. Pcv goes to catch can.machinedave wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 6:58 pm I believe the issue is not the rings or a lack of plate honing. I suspect that you are drawing oil in from a vacuum source. Could be a intake gasket, loose/cracked guide etc....Are all of the exhaust ports full of oil? Factory 1972 heads or aftermarket?
Re: Which rings will save this?
I am running 68 921 heads. Pcv into a catch can. Intake manifold clean.
Re: Which rings will save this?
You can just about count on this if it doesn't have stock GM valve covers with the vapor separators in them.jeff swisher wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:41 pm I have seen extreme oil usage from the PCV valve.
It was positioned right over the stream of oil from the pushrod.
Coarse grit finish hone can wear the moly face off rings but this does not seem to bother the oil ring.
I did read instructions on some thin oil rings that the center expander gap needs to face up.
You can bolt your intake up on 1 side without a gasket and measure the other side and see if you are angled correctly.
Re: Which rings will save this?
Do you have pictures of your plugs…especially showing the ones with oil in exhaust ports?benrep wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 8:00 pmIt is not the intake, that has been verified, the heads are 1968 921 new guides and seals, everything clean. Not all exhaust ports full of oil, one on left bank, three on right. All show a little. Pcv goes to catch can.machinedave wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 6:58 pm I believe the issue is not the rings or a lack of plate honing. I suspect that you are drawing oil in from a vacuum source. Could be a intake gasket, loose/cracked guide etc....Are all of the exhaust ports full of oil? Factory 1972 heads or aftermarket?
Re: Which rings will save this?
Tuner / Jeff Swisher / In-Tech posted below;
I have seen extreme oil usage from the PCV valve.
It was positioned right over the stream of oil from the pushrod.
You can just about count on this if it doesn't have stock GM valve covers with the vapor separators in them.
I would check the valve spring seals , the sequence to install the Oring seals are: install the spring with the retainer and tin umbrella , compress the stack and then the Oring seal gets installed followed by the valve locks last.
All three suggestions are good ones , the deck plate won't cause this issue and the hone if done with at least 220 grit will be OK to break in rings. Your hone looks good , no need to redo it , any one of the 3 ring sets should seal , the Hasting moly rings will work well. One last item , that 1965 intake will need the oil fill pipe removed and a freeze plug needs to be installed in the intake or oil will pass out the fill pipe because the block does not have the complete seal area for the oil pipe. Use any good oil with zinc for break in , nothing real special is needed.
I have seen extreme oil usage from the PCV valve.
It was positioned right over the stream of oil from the pushrod.
You can just about count on this if it doesn't have stock GM valve covers with the vapor separators in them.
I would check the valve spring seals , the sequence to install the Oring seals are: install the spring with the retainer and tin umbrella , compress the stack and then the Oring seal gets installed followed by the valve locks last.
All three suggestions are good ones , the deck plate won't cause this issue and the hone if done with at least 220 grit will be OK to break in rings. Your hone looks good , no need to redo it , any one of the 3 ring sets should seal , the Hasting moly rings will work well. One last item , that 1965 intake will need the oil fill pipe removed and a freeze plug needs to be installed in the intake or oil will pass out the fill pipe because the block does not have the complete seal area for the oil pipe. Use any good oil with zinc for break in , nothing real special is needed.
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Re: Which rings will save this?
Ben,
I think you need to stop for a minute and think this out before you make things worse.
Millions and millions of engines have been honed without torque plates. It simply is not an issue.
Are you absolutely certain the rings were installed correctly ? I have seen more than one instance of them not correct and cause exactly the same problem. Post a picture of one of the pistons with the rings on it so we can see the ring faces.
Which part number piston ?
I would not touch the cylinders at this time. If you do end up doing anything just use a 320 or so grit dingle hone for a few strokes but I am not sure if I would even do that. Actually if you dont find another cause I would take it back to the machine shop and have them hone it a few strokes with a real hone.
How about some pictures of the intake gaskets to see how they are sealing ?
I think you need to stop for a minute and think this out before you make things worse.
Millions and millions of engines have been honed without torque plates. It simply is not an issue.
Are you absolutely certain the rings were installed correctly ? I have seen more than one instance of them not correct and cause exactly the same problem. Post a picture of one of the pistons with the rings on it so we can see the ring faces.
Which part number piston ?
I would not touch the cylinders at this time. If you do end up doing anything just use a 320 or so grit dingle hone for a few strokes but I am not sure if I would even do that. Actually if you dont find another cause I would take it back to the machine shop and have them hone it a few strokes with a real hone.
How about some pictures of the intake gaskets to see how they are sealing ?
Bill Koustenis
Advanced Automotive Machine
Waldorf Md
www.enginerepairshop.com
Advanced Automotive Machine
Waldorf Md
www.enginerepairshop.com
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Re: Which rings will save this?
Run the rings as is and find the problem, It has to do with the upper end and that is all. Intake! Pull the Carb off and look down the intake for oil. I know you changed intakes but ......What gasket are you using?
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Adam
Adam