Quality Flat Tappet Components

[Mummert]

It appears to be taboo to talk about flat tappet cams since both threads in recent history have been locked
Is it possible to compile a list of quality cam core and lifter manufacturers so that engine builders can be informed and ask intelligent questions when purchasing parts.

Many of the popular engines from the late 50's and 60's still seem to have quality parts available, some of the early 50's engines are getting harder to find good quality parts for.

As far as I know (Engine Power) is one of if not the only U.S. made iron flat tappet cam core manufacturers. The cores are usually marked with CWC.
There may be others quality cam core manufacturers, but I dont know who they are or how to identify them.

I think Johnson used to be the choice for flat tappet lifters, SBI has been making lifters that are imported and for some of the older engines is about all you can get.

Obviously Cam King is the best person here to educate us. Speedtalk is a place where many come for up to date knowledge. Knowing what components are worth the money and which ones are to good to be true would be helpful.

One of the recent threads made mention of lifter that were poorly crowned, manufacturers of poorly made parts would be helpful.

Hopefully its possible to pull this off and get people on the right track.

[Geoff2]

It is pretty simple. If you want reliable FT lifters, have 25 yr or older lifters re-faced. There must be millions in junk yards.....
This is a practice we have been doing in Australia for DECADES because of the high cost of new lifters.

[Mummert]

There is a compatibility issue with old and new. Older cam cores used to be about 52 53rc and the lifters were 55 56rc or so. If you are regrinding a cam and lifters of similar vintage I think you have good shot. Putting older lifters on a newer cam that is made from Porifera 55 may have issues.

Hopefully we can get some clarification on this.

[GARY C]

This cam grinder test hardness on some different cams and lifters as well as measuring the crown and grinding one to show the machining issue.
Lifter crown issues
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbRjAMhCEJk

Cam and lifter hardness tests.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMFikj-TAqo

[Tom68]

It is pretty simple. If you want reliable FT lifters, have 25 yr or older lifters re-faced. There must be millions in junk yards.....
This is a practice we have been doing in Australia for DECADES because of the high cost of new lifters.

Where do you get 25 year old FT lifters ?

So if I got a 1980 308 I'd reface the lifters that come out of it and regrind the cam and what, disassemble the lifter, clean out the gunk, check the spring free height and make sure the check ball is still round.

[BOOT]

Hopefully I break in a cheap cam this summer with some mexican lifters and I'll find out myself. Tho the last two cams that I broke in weren't 25yrs ago but honestly who knows who made those lifters. As they were both $100 cam kits and I didn't pay attention at the time.

Far as threads locked, I think it's just been discussed far too much recently and it's always the same old debate.

[GARY C]

Hopefully I break in a cheap cam this summer with some mexican lifters and I'll find out myself. Tho the last two cams that I broke in weren't 25yrs ago but honestly who knows who made those lifters. As they were both $100 cam kits and I didn't pay attention at the time.

Far as threads locked, I think it's just been discussed far too much recently and it's always the same old debate.

The fact that the subject comes up a lot is evidence that there is a big market for Flat Tappet and maybe discussion would be a better answer than blocking the discussion.

I found it interesting that Summit advertises GM performance lifters, I don't know if they are old school GM quality but the are more expensive than Mike's lifters.

If a quality flat tappet lifters is going to cost $180.00 these days thats fine if it lives, it is still far less than a roller.

[Mummert]

This cam grinder test hardness on some different cams and lifters as well as measuring the crown and grinding one to show the machining issue.
Lifter crown issues
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbRjAMhCEJk

Cam and lifter hardness tests.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMFikj-TAqo

This was interesting, the word on the street has been that the lifter needs to 3-4 points harder than the camshaft.
I think the way that this thread will stay alive is if we have cam grinders and engine builders that are building 10 or so flat tappet engines a year with hard core knowledge of what is and whats not working and how to identify these parts.

As we all don't know each others work loads I guess we'll just have to leave it on the honor system. I think these threads get locked down when they jump speculation or out of date knowledge.

[bob460]

Why do people over think this...." Quality Flat Tappet Components".........it's simple just get it from CAMKING........you know what your getting and best yet he will spec a cam to suit your needs, no more worries...............So just support the forum and Mike, no need to look else where.

[blykins]

Why were the threads locked? There was nothing going sideways inside?????

I know that I have a specific recipe for flat tappet builds. I have never had a cam go flat. Actually scared that I typed that, because I'm sure now it will happen.

When I have cams ground, for typical "street" builds, I use Comp or Bullet to grind them. I have them ground with more lobe taper than what's usually included when grinding new cams. I use lifters that "oil" whenever possible, so EDM lifters for solid flat tappets, and lifters for hydraulic cams that have the flat ground on them. I predominantly use Crower lifters for street builds.

For higher performance builds, street/strip, race, etc., the cams are nitrided and I use Trend tool steel lifters.

I think the break-in is the most critical part. Lots of guys try to break in with too high spring loads. I try to limit break in to 100 lbs seat and 250 open.

[Steve Salesky]

I agree buy from Mike Jones, I always recommend him. He is honest and one of the best in the business. Problem is if he does not have the needed cam core. For Chevy stuff should not be an issue, but I needed one for a FE and he had no cores. He warned me about the situation and I waited, eventually got a hydraulic roller from him instead. Not his fault and he was straight up about it from day one, things these days are crazy with manufacturing. I have another 427 with no drilled lifter galleys so hydro roller not an option. I just got an off the shelf SFT cam elsewhere as it intended just to be a cruiser nothing special, just has to run. I intend to measure and check what I can and use proper break in procedures and hopefully that is enough.

In the other thread Mike made a good point problem is a aftermarket problem. It does not want to spend the money on quality parts and is a lack of QC. They buy the cores, grind the cam, and put it in their box along with the lifters they bought someplace. This is the problem I always had with Comp Cams. I have no doubt they can and do sell quality parts, but for things like lifters and cam cores they are not the manufacturer. They buy them and you have no idea who their supplier is and if the supplier changes. May be good one day, but not the next.

FT cams and lifters used to be made in very large numbers and usually scales of economy, conformance to standards result in a lower cost, but quality product that meets the needs of the application. I don't believe you really have this today for these old engines so you are relying on either buying from someone who knows the business, does their own research and QC, or check whatever you can yourself, use best practices and hope for the best or go roller if it is an option.

I do agree more knowledge on things like hardness between lifters and lobe be a good discussion item. I know I have a set of tool steel lifters and a set of Morel SFT "dumb bell" lifts for that other FE. I have measured them both out and they are fine, but don't know the hardness on the Morels, and the tool steel ones are a lot harder. I know I can use them, but usually extra oil lube is recommended to the cam which I cannot do because of the block. I'd prefer to use the Morels as I would be able to use my existing pushrods. I know the tool steel won't fail, but may wear the cam faster than I'd like. Likely over thinking it, but just don't want a failure given the cost and how hard it is to find those blocks.

[Steve Salesky]

Why were the threads locked? There was nothing going sideways inside?????

I know that I have a specific recipe for flat tappet builds. I have never had a cam go flat. Actually scared that I typed that, because I'm sure now it will happen.

When I have cams ground, for typical "street" builds, I use Comp or Bullet to grind them. I have them ground with more lobe taper than what's usually included when grinding new cams. I use lifters that "oil" whenever possible, so EDM lifters for solid flat tappets, and lifters for hydraulic cams that have the flat ground on them. I predominantly use Crower lifters for street builds.

For higher performance builds, street/strip, race, etc., the cams are nitrided and I use Trend tool steel lifters.

I think the break-in is the most critical part. Lots of guys try to break in with too high spring loads. I try to limit break in to 100 lbs seat and 250 open.

You do know when you have more taper ground into a cam, the lifter radius should be ground to match. I know this extra taper seem to be a popular thing, and are those that have had good luck with it, but if they do not match you are changing the contact point where the lifter rides on the cam. Worn lifter bores will affect the contact point too and many be why it seems to help, but not so sure from a technical point of view it is a good thing.

[Walter R. Malik]

You do know when you have more taper ground into a cam, the lifter radius should be ground to match. I know this extra taper seem to be a popular thing, and are those that have had good luck with it, but if they do not match you are changing the contact point where the lifter rides on the cam.

Worn lifter bores will affect the contact point too and many be why it seems to help, but not so sure from a technical point of view it is a good thing.

Yes ... the worn lifter bores in older engines can become a problem. When the lifters have to much clearance they can "lean over" to where the taper will no longer rotate the lifter. Being certain that the lifter bores have the correct clearances is paramount.

[hoffman900]

I think Mike’s post summed it up perfectly, but I think a lot of it comes down to “good, fast, cheap; pick two”.

Flat tappets have seemed to have been an issue my entire life, so that extends well into the 80s.

We used Precision Performance Products for our lifters about fifteen years ago. That combined with a LSM billet core solved all our issues. Lifters were custom and near $1000 a set, the cam core was $600 before grinding any lobes onto it. This is mid 2000s prices.

The tales of NASCAR builders trying to get flat tappets to live even going back to the 1970s reads like the Old Testament. Stellite welded cams, etc, and I believe before the made the switch to rollers, the cores alone were near $1000 a pop.

And none of this accounts for incompatible parts (tappet taper vs lobe, too much spring, etc), assembly error, lifter bore alignment issues (some of these castings you guysbare using are 60+ years old and only getting older, and especially aluminum, it moves over time. Aftermarket QA/QC is always a crapshoot).

I’m not convinced these $350 cam kits were ever good.

As for the OEMs, a lot of diesels are still flat tappets and they are seeing half a million miles plus with no problem.

I think as others have said, buy premium, or buy from someone who is curating from suppliers (like Mike) to put together good packages that are compatible.

I know it’s easy to hate on Comp sometimes, but Billy’s presentation on surface finishes on lobes (and lifters) on Youtube is great and it’s also something Mike has talked about the entire time I have seem him post here, so a decade and a half. So that is another factor, some of these white box labeled cams, or regrinders, or some other cheaper options can’t do it and we have seen that as well and also have seen other funky stuff when measured on a CamDr, measuring on an Adcole would probably be horrifying.

[CamKing]

Why were the threads locked? There was nothing going sideways inside?????

Because they were filled with non-factual posts.
People just posting opinions, without any facts to back it up.
We've already got a few on this thread.