Quality Flat Tappet Components

[CamKing]

Is it possible to compile a list of quality cam core and lifter manufacturers so that engine builders can be informed and ask intelligent questions when purchasing parts.

There are 2 U.S. companies selling flat tappet cam cores, and both are having them cast at CWC.
One is Engine Power Components(EPC). They offer 3 grades of material, Std, HC, and P55.
Std is fine for hydraulic flat tappet cams with under 300# of max spring pressure.
HC(High Chrome) is good aggressive racing hydraulic flat tappet cams, and mechanical flat tappet cams with under 360# of max spring pressure.
P55 is good for the more aggressive flat tappet cams with up to 420# of max spring pressure. It's only down-side, is that brittle, and can break.
The other company is Camshaft Machine Company(CMC). They offer 2 grades of material, Proferall and Proferall++
Std Proferall is good for mild hydraulic flat tappet cams.
Proferall++ is good for for anything, up to 400# of max spring pressure. It's not quite as hard as P55, but it's not as brittle.

We do not recommend plasma/pulse nitriding the cast iron cams. Even at the lowest temperature(850f), the process will draw back the core hardness of the material. It'll end up with a very hard, but very thin outer layer, that will help with break-in, but after a while, the softer material below the hard outer layer will give way, and the hard outer layer will start to crack, and flake off.

For iron flat tappet lifters, the only lifter we use is the Hylift Johnson lifters. There were some issues, the first year of Covid, when everything was shut down, but those problems were short lived. We sell thousands of them a year, and the quality is as good as ever. We inspect them all, and have only had to return a handful of them, in the last 2 years.
We also have many customers that run Tool Steel lifters from Trend and PPPC, without any issues


As for grinding the cams, the amount of taper controls how far the contact point on the lifter is from the center of the lifter. The distance from center controls lifter spin, but also effects side-loading. We use the taper we think is best for the lifter radius of the Hylift Johnson lifters we sell. That's one of the few things I don't share with anyone.

We recommend every flat tappet cam and lifter set, be broke in with 250-280# of max spring pressure for 20+ minutes at 2,000rpm, using a break-in oil.

[ClassAct]

Is it possible to compile a list of quality cam core and lifter manufacturers so that engine builders can be informed and ask intelligent questions when purchasing parts.

There are 2 U.S. companies selling flat tappet cam cores, and both are having them cast at CWC.
One is Engine Power Components(EPC). They offer 3 grades of material, Std, HC, and P55.
Std is fine for hydraulic flat tapped cams with under 300# of max spring pressure.
HC(High Chrome) is good aggressive racing hydraulic flat tappet cams, and mechanical flat tappet cams with under 360# of max spring pressure.
P55 is good for the more aggressive flat tappet cams with up to 420# of max spring pressure. It's only down-side, is that brittle, and can break.
The other company is Camshaft Machine Company(CMC). They offer 2 grades of material, Proferall and Proferall++
Std Proferall is good for mild hydraulic flat tappet cams.
Proferall++ is good for for anything, up to 400# of max spring pressure. It's not quite as hard as P55, but it's not as brittle.

We do not recommend plasma/pulse nitriding the cast iron cams. Even at the lowest temperature(850f), the process will draw back the core hardness of the material. It'll end up with a very hard, but very thin outer layer, that will help with break-in, but after a while, the softer material below the hard outer layer will give way, and the hard outer payer will start to crack, and flake off.

For iron flat tappet lifters, the only lifter we use is the Hylift Johnson lifters. There were some issues, the first year of Covid, when everything was shut down, but those problems were short lived. We sell thousands of them a year, and the quality is as good as ever. We inspect them all, and have only had to return a handful of them, in the last 2 years.
We also have many customers that run Tool Steel lifters from Trend and PPPC, without any issues


As for grinding the cams, the amount of taper controls how far the contact point on the lifter is from the center of the lifter. The distance from center controls lifter spin, but also effects side-loading. We use the taper we think is best for the lifter radius of the Hylift Johnson lifters we sell. That's one of the few things I don't share with anyone.

We recommend every flat tappet cam and lifter set, be broke in with 250-280# of max spring pressure for 20+ minutes at 2,000rpm, using a break-in oil.

Do you recommend another 20 or so minutes of break in time after you install the inner springs?? I’ve got a Pontiac on the dyno that I ran the break in on last night. I need install the inners. What do you think about another 20 minutes or so break in time with the inners in?

TIA

[CamKing]

Do you recommend another 20 or so minutes of break in time after you install the inner springs?? I’ve got a Pontiac on the dyno that I ran the break in on last night. I need install the inners. What do you think about another 20 minutes or so break in time with the inners in?

I've never bothered, but since I don't know anything about your cam or lifters, another 10 minutes wouldn't hurt.

[F-BIRD'88]

How would someone visually identify a EPC "HC" high chrome camshaft or ID a CWC Proferall++ camshaft ?

[PRH]

Which engine families/platforms are the higher grade cores available for??

[CamKing]

How would someone visually identify a EPC "HC" high chrome camshaft or ID a CWC Proferall++ camshaft ?

There's an "HC" cast on the core.
For the CMC cams, you have to know the part# of the core.

[CamKing]

Which engine families/platforms are the higher grade cores available for??

The proferall++ is available for almost everything.
The HC and P55 cores are for SB and BB Chevy, and Ford 2300.

[Mummert]

Mike thanks for sharing so much information at one time, I think it does help clear up a lot of things. It may give people more questions than they had before. I know that there are things you don't want to give away.
If you were playing around with an engine that didn't have Johnson lifter available and you had to do your own analysis of the parts you had available. Lifter crown checking and rockwell testing etc., what are some specs that would be a good starting point. 56-58rc hardness? .002" lifter crown over .750" diameter?? Is .002' crown a 40" or 60" radius?
Back when I ground a few cams myself .001" was considered minimum taper across the face of the lobe. .002" taper was near the higher side. Does that still hold true today.

Even down to basic things like conventional taper and reverse taper. Many GM products have conventional taper only which forces the cam to the rear of the engine. Sorta eliminating the need for the thrust plate. Ford had both taper and the cam was supposed to remain neutral.
Grinding with both tapers can take more time and cost more to grind. Dual Pattern cams take more time because you have to switch masters etc.

I'm not trying to put you on the spot. Just trying to give a decent builder a shot at making some good educated guesses.
I'm sure you would love to be the guy that ground every performance cam but its probably not possible considering how busy many guys are these days.

Thanks

[Tom68]

Question for AI.
For American V8 engines that ran Hydraulic Flat Tappet cams we are currently having quality issues leading to component failures, how should we source our parts going forward ?

AIs answer. Call Mike.
If you are experiencing quality issues with hydraulic flat tappet cam components for American V8 engines, it's important to identify the root cause of the failures before determining the best way to source replacement parts. Some potential causes of component failures could include poor manufacturing processes, improper installation, inadequate lubrication, or poor maintenance practices.

To address these issues, it may be beneficial to consult with a qualified engine builder or machine shop to identify any underlying problems and develop a plan for sourcing and installing replacement parts. They may also be able to recommend high-quality manufacturers or suppliers of hydraulic flat tappet cam components that have a proven track record of quality and reliability.

It's also worth considering switching to an alternative camshaft material or design that is less prone to failure. For example, roller camshafts are often more durable than flat tappet camshafts and can provide better performance, although they may also be more expensive.

Ultimately, the best way to source replacement parts will depend on your specific needs and circumstances. It may be worthwhile to do some research on different manufacturers and suppliers to find those with the best reputation for quality and reliability. It's also important to follow proper installation and maintenance procedures to help ensure the longevity and reliability of your engine components.

[frnkeore]

I would like to hear more about one of Geoff's questions, regarding the hardness differential between cam and lifter.

Regarding lifter radius, I come up with this, based on a .75 dia.
.75 dia x .002 ht = 35.157" R
.0015= 48.876 R
.0013= 54.09 R
.001= 70.313 R
.0008= 87.89 R

What I do, is put the lifter in a lathe and mount a pencil in the tool holder. Then adjust the dia, with the cross slide, to get the dia needed to measure, with a test indicator on a surface plate.

BTW, Ford used a pretty small radius, on the .874 FE lifter @ 37" R. Then later changing it to 50" R for the 385 engines. I would love to know what Ford used for the 1" mushroom lifter.

Also, there is a guy in Redding, CA that regrinds lifters and says that he does some for Isky. He uses a 80" R and that Isky approved of that but, that sounded to large for me.

[HQM383]

As for grinding the cams, the amount of taper controls how far the contact point on the lifter is from the center of the lifter. The distance from center controls lifter spin, but also effects side-loading.

Could the miss match of cam and lifter taper be a big contributor to flat tapper cam failure? Especially if one is to purchase cam from brand A and lifters brand Y? I’d imagine it wouldn’t take much for the lifter to have more taper than the cam resulting in little to no lifter rotation and all the load centralized on the lobe. This would be completely unknown by the end user leading to blaming poor lifter and/or cam quality and even oil etc that are more salient to the non professional.

FWIW to add to the original post list I’ve never had a flat tappet failure spanning back to mid 90’s. Always methodical break in procedures and always use reputable component brands. I have just recently disassembled my personal street/strip engine that’s been running since 2016 and all 16 Hy-Lift Johnson lifters look good.

[Geoff2]

Tom68.

Your 1980 308 engine. Send the lifters to Clive Cams, Melbourne for re-facing. He has done many, many sets for me; never had a problem with many engines running with them. I have never had to strip the lifters because he keeps them clean during the RF process. Very easy to strip if you want to.

[Mummert]

I would like to hear more about one of Geoff's questions, regarding the hardness differential between cam and lifter.

Regarding lifter radius, I come up with this, based on a .75 dia.
.75 dia x .002 ht = 35.157" R
.0015= 48.876 R
.0013= 54.09 R
.001= 70.313 R
.0008= 87.89 R

What I do, is put the lifter in a lathe and mount a pencil in the tool holder. Then adjust the dia, with the cross slide, to get the dia needed to measure, with a test indicator on a surface plate.

BTW, Ford used a pretty small radius, on the .874 FE lifter @ 37" R. Then later changing it to 50" R for the 385 engines. I would love to know what Ford used for the 1" mushroom lifter.

Also, there is a guy in Redding, CA that regrinds lifters and says that he does some for Isky. He uses a 80" R and that Isky approved of that but, that sounded to large for me.

That looks like some good info there Frank. I'd have to check an old Y block lifter but think they had a smaller radius with more crown. I'll try to look into that.

The SBI iron lifters which are about the only thing for a Y block right now are checking 56-58rc

The only thing I can say about lifter hardness is that it must be through hard. Some years back ,15 years or so one of the name brand vendors was pushing lifters that checked good on the Rockwell tester, the crown was in spec so we put them in an engine. That thing lost 12 out of 16 lifters in under 10 minutes. We ended taking a new one of those lifters and machining about .075" off the bottom and rechecking the hardness. It was butter soft. Long story short M&M's dont make good lifters.
With the Y Block Ford lifter situation it has been a train ride for the last 20 years. I cant tell you how many different versions we've seen.

The majority of my flat tappet experience in the last 10 years has been tool steel. They are their own thing ,and kind of defy most of the common logic.

[bobmc]

what makes a tool steel lifter superior to some other alloy? for instance the 4140 that spring retainers are made of? do they have the same crown as iron lifters?

[CamKing]

As for grinding the cams, the amount of taper controls how far the contact point on the lifter is from the center of the lifter. The distance from center controls lifter spin, but also effects side-loading.

Could the miss match of cam and lifter taper be a big contributor to flat tapper cam failure?

First, let's clear something up.
The lifter doesn't have taper. It has a crown. The crown is commonly between a 52" and 58" radius.
The lobe has taper which makes the face of the lobe a given angle from the center line of the cam. The taper is measured in degrees(minutes) from parallel. The lobe does not have a crown.

All lifters are supposed to be machined with the OEM crown. Ford calls out a different crown radius them GM.
Yes, if the crown radius is not what it's supposed to be, then running a cam with the correct taper for the OEM crown radius may cause failure.
That's why I don't warranty my cams, if you run another brand of lifters with it. There's some very poorly machined lifters out there.