SuperStock 461X 041X Heads and Dyno tests

[maxracesoftware]

That wasn't something to learn to welding on.

Looks like he low-temp Stick-welded with a Nickel Rod , a little bit at a time ??

[Dave B]

It's was early day attempt at a burr finish or a drunk indian chasing a snake with stick welder.

[Dave B]

from my Dyno testing along with Dragstrip testing this is what i discovered so far :

SuperStockers with 2-Speed Powerglide does not lose as much HP if an Intake or Exhaust Port has way too fast local CSA velocities
reason : 2-Speed has way less Engine RPM/SECOND rev rates -vs- 3 or 4 speeds
... so that the Chevy SuperStockers w/ Powerglides lose less HP

SuperStockers with 3-Speed Automatic Trans , such as, Chrysler SuperStockers have more HP loss with Intake or Exhaust Port that has way too fast local CSA velocities

SuperStockers with 4-Speed Manual/Clutch Trans lose even more HP "if" there's too fast local CSA velocities

This is info that I think most guys would not know that you bring to lite here. I have a buddy that is working with a superstock racer that set allot of records in the 90s.This guy is coming out of retirement and building a new car. He has always raced small inch /high rpm stuff with clutch. He has some carbs that he set records with on his stuff. You try and Dyno with those carbs or put them on large low air speed heads or with a auto trans and they are garbage. My father ran some prostock in late 70s and early 80s. We are going to test one of his 292 headed engs from back then with a single 4 barrel intake that we designed recently. I'm really interested to see how the old welded up chamber and ex port heads and epoxy floor s compare to his new engine with Edelbrock heads compare. New engine will be better block,cam yada yada . I'm betting the old iron runs pretty close to the new piece. Imo there is only so much you can do with same basic port layout and stuck to 2.02 valves.Its a 306 and new engine will be 310 inch.We had to fix some epoxy in old 292 heads so we brought the cc down to what he has to run in class now. Had to use some creative work to kill some cc and not send the air speed screaming. The new intake on old heads did peak HP on Dyno @8550. If it runs 1500 rpm above that in car ,it will be in the hunt imo .As my buddy stated that is working part of this multi person venture, " I have never worked this hard to go this slow". That in a nut shell is my take on super stock. Imo if I'm putting this much effort into a engine ,I want the latest ,greatest tech available. It don't cost anymore to develop a 10 deg headed SBC than a 23 super stock. The flat hood thing in 2023 seems beyond stupid to me also. But I guess some guys enjoy rules and guys like me want freedom to go fast as possible. Everyone has opinions on racing this format. Going 9.50s does not interest me in the slightest when you could be doing so much more now days.
I guess I liked early weight per cube and let it eat. But each their own.

[maxracesoftware]

by Dave B » Sat Jul 08, 2023 1:06 pm

Dave B ,
please Post some Data + Car and Dyno Pics when you finish your Build !!

[Dave B]

by Dave B » Sat Jul 08, 2023 1:06 pm

Dave B ,
please Post some Data + Car and Dyno Pics when you finish your Build !!

I will as we get a little farther along. The guy that actually owns new car is trying to keep it all quiet in the short term. So I will honor his wishes. The biggest problem is getting parts to finish everything. The guy is getting older and will be his last hurrah.
He says he wants his car to do the talking when it's time. We tried some things on Dyno with old engine and new intake. We had 2 intakes done and working on a 3rd. Thanx Larry for showing what you do. Allot of guys love that stuff and never have seen it up close.

[maxracesoftware]

"Shout out to all these Head Porters and their YouTube Videos"

Eric Weingartner
Double Hump SBC Flow Test
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_SAr2Dju8Y

Sadly, Mr. Weingartner has been chased away by one of our resident trolls...

Sadly, Mr. Weingartner has been chased away by one of our resident trolls...

hi Kevin,
... no worries ,
Eric Weingartner woke me up yesterday , "you have a few minutes to talk ?"
i hope i didn't sound too groggy, incoherent,
"few minutes" .. was 1 Hour , 17 minutes , and 33 Seconds long
... i hate talking ( answering the Phone ) ... before i finish my 2nd Cup of Coffee

 

[maxracesoftware]

Tony Bischoff ( BES ) SBC #186 castings for a "Numbers restoration" 1969 Z28 Camaro 302cid
NHRA SuperStock Porting with 2.020/1.600 Valves
4.125 Flowbench Bore Fixture , no Exhaust Flow Pipe
------------------------------------------------------
Danny Helmer SBC #041x castings
1.940/1.500 Valve sizes 165.0cc / 65.0cc
4.000 Flowbench Bore Fixture , no Exhaust Flow Pipe

BES_186_SBC_cast_iron_Dec_22_2022.jpg

041X_Cyl_3_Danny_Helmer_Final_March_10_2004.jpg

BES_186_SBC_vs_Danny_Helmer041x_Intake.jpg

BES_186_SBC_vs_Danny_Helmer041x_Exhaust.jpg

BES_186_SBC_Chamber_2.jpg

BES_186_SBC_Intake_Ports_3.jpg

BES_186_SBC_Intake_Ports_2.jpg

BES_186_SBC_casting_number.jpg

BES_186_SBC_Intake_Ports_1.jpg

BES_186_SBC_Exhaust_Port_1.jpg

BES_186_SBC_Intake_Bowl_1.jpg

BES_186_SBC_Exhaust_Bowl_3.jpg

BES_186_SBC_Chamber_1.jpg

BES_186_SBC_Exhaust_Bowl_2.jpg

BES_186_SBC_Exhaust_Bowl_1.jpg

 

[Dave B]

IMG_20230709_202742349.jpg

Larry here is a crappy pic of heads my dad raced with first in 1979. 292 heads with ports widened and stud mounts moved and used a cam dynamics offset rocker. Floors flattened and ex port floor raised to bolt holes. Chambers reshaped and brazed up also. Angle milled super thin. These were typical leakers like all of them in this state. 2.05 x1.580 tit valved. They now are 2.060 x 1.565. They now have 60/40 shaft rocker setup.These heads were flowed in 90s as he ran them. They would flow in 290s on a 1020 bench. Look at port width. Ex ports are moved over towards spark plug or chamber center. Reg header would not fit to factory holes. These were high dollar pieces for day and age. This is what prostock look like back then and or weight per inch racing. I wish I could find all the data from back in the day on these, his time slips etc. He was bad with notes but had a hellish memory. I wish I did keep better track of his stuff before he passed on.

[maxracesoftware]

i just talked with Chris at C and S Performance in Baton Rouge , LA
its a "numbers matching Engine" as far as Engine parts,
but its not going to be a "numbers matching" Car

by coincidence, Chris is actually in the process of assembling the Engine today when i called !

( not a 350cid )
BES # 186 castings
its a 302cid Z28 Engine original Cross-Ram Intake Manifold with 2 Holley Carbs numbers matching
however, Chris is going to use 2 new EFI Holley Carbs instead , along with new Hydraulic Roller Cam,
the 1968 Camaro Z28 4-Speed manual trans will be a Street driven Car , Chris already has changed rear gears to 3.73 ratio
... Chris said its taken a long time to get this far with this Car restoration ! longer than he expected !

[maxracesoftware]

Note : this is NOT the Camaro Z28 that C & S is restoring

instead this is another SuperStock Z28 Camaro 4-Speed Car i did work on in early 1970's

Details here :

.... FaceBook picture :
i Posted this Pic on FaceBook as to who knows anything about this Camaro ??
i got pretty much an immediate response
" its Jim Wiggins Sr. driving at State Capitol Dragstrip , Baton Rouge , LA in 1970's "

That SuperStock SS/G Camaro was for my Neighbor Jim "Jimbo" Wiggins Jr. who now lives across the street for my Shop ,
that Camaro was for his Dad Jim Wiggins's Sr. wow !!! , i completely forgot i re-built that Engine + Bowl-Ported Heads , etc
i also changed out rear gears to 4.88 ( i had no Flowbench or Dyno back then , just instinct )

... from my FaceBook page :
i found out this 302cid Z28 was purchased brand new by Mac Davis local Chevrolet Rep for his Wife,
then sold to Jim Wiggins Sr. for $1600.00 in 1971 , and i actually rebuilt the 302cid
.. my memory was very shot on this Car . Also it was a white vinyl-roof top Car

Mac Davis had a L88 Corvette , i use to Street Race against and Race against at PelState Dragstrip in late 1960's

Mac Davis sold it for $1600.00 dollars in 1971 , unbelievable cheap price !!! ... its probably worth a small fortune now , thats if its still around ???

.... FaceBook picture :

Jim Wiggins 1968 Z28 302cid_BatonRouge_1.jpg

 

[skinny z]

"Shout out to all these Head Porters and their YouTube Videos"
Eric Weingartner
Double Hump SBC Flow Test
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_SAr2Dju8Y

Sadly, Mr. Weingartner has been chased away by one of our resident trolls...

Sadly, Mr. Weingartner has been chased away by one of our resident trolls...

hi Kevin,
... no worries ,
Eric Weingartner woke me up yesterday , "you have a few minutes to talk ?"
i hope i didn't sound too groggy, incoherent,
"few minutes" .. was 1 Hour , 17 minutes , and 33 Seconds long
... i hate talking ( answering the Phone ) ... before i finish my 2nd Cup of Coffee

I didn't he was about to jump off a bridge because of a Speedtalk experience.
I just think it's a sad state of affairs when that happens. Personally, while I don't watch all that he has to offer, I appreciate his representing himself and the back and forth dialogue that goes along with it.
The same way I appreciate your input Mr M.

Now back to your regularly scheduled cylinder heads ...

[maxracesoftware]

i just talked with Chris at C and S Performance in Baton Rouge , LA
its a "numbers matching Engine" as far as Engine parts,
but its not going to be a "numbers matching" Car

by coincidence, Chris is actually in the process of assembling the Engine today when i called !

( not a 350cid )
BES # 186 castings
its a 302cid Z28 Engine original Cross-Ram Intake Manifold with 2 Holley Carbs numbers matching
however, Chris is going to use 2 new EFI Holley Carbs instead , along with new Hydraulic Roller Cam,
the 1968 Camaro Z28 4-Speed manual trans will be a Street driven Car , Chris already has changed rear gears to 3.73 ratio
... Chris said its taken a long time to get this far with this Car restoration ! longer than he expected !

Correction : not a 1968 Z28 ... instead its really a 1969 Z28 302 cid

Chris said Z28 302cid engine is completely assembled , ... except for :
ran into this problem --> new Valve Covers they wanted to use did not fit under Z28 Cross-Ram Manifold
after trying a bunch of different Brands , Chris found Valve Covers that would fit after some minor fixes !
Hopefully get some Car + Engine Pics + Dyno Data soon ???

[VMC]

i just talked with Chris at C and S Performance in Baton Rouge , LA
its a "numbers matching Engine" as far as Engine parts,
but its not going to be a "numbers matching" Car

by coincidence, Chris is actually in the process of assembling the Engine today when i called !

( not a 350cid )
BES # 186 castings
its a 302cid Z28 Engine original Cross-Ram Intake Manifold with 2 Holley Carbs numbers matching
however, Chris is going to use 2 new EFI Holley Carbs instead , along with new Hydraulic Roller Cam,
the 1968 Camaro Z28 4-Speed manual trans will be a Street driven Car , Chris already has changed rear gears to 3.73 ratio
... Chris said its taken a long time to get this far with this Car restoration ! longer than he expected !

Correction : not a 1968 Z28 ... instead its really a 1969 Z28 302 cid

Chris said Z28 302cid engine is completely assembled , ... except for :
ran into this problem --> new Valve Covers they wanted to use did not fit under Z28 Cross-Ram Manifold
after trying a bunch of different Brands , Chris found Valve Covers that would fit after some minor fixes !
Hopefully get some Car + Engine Pics + Dyno Data soon ???

Larry;

I don't know if this will be of any help or not, but almost 20 years ago I built a 302 Crossram for a client's `69 Z28 which used a reproduction (but correct in form & fit) intake, service dated correct carbs, and real `69 Z28 valve covers. I wound up having to remove about .060" from the top valve cover rail to allow them to be R&R'ed with the intake in place.

I'll try to post a couple of pics after dinner.

[VMC]

i just talked with Chris at C and S Performance in Baton Rouge , LA
its a "numbers matching Engine" as far as Engine parts,
but its not going to be a "numbers matching" Car

by coincidence, Chris is actually in the process of assembling the Engine today when i called !

( not a 350cid )
BES # 186 castings
its a 302cid Z28 Engine original Cross-Ram Intake Manifold with 2 Holley Carbs numbers matching
however, Chris is going to use 2 new EFI Holley Carbs instead , along with new Hydraulic Roller Cam,
the 1968 Camaro Z28 4-Speed manual trans will be a Street driven Car , Chris already has changed rear gears to 3.73 ratio
... Chris said its taken a long time to get this far with this Car restoration ! longer than he expected !

Correction : not a 1968 Z28 ... instead its really a 1969 Z28 302 cid

Chris said Z28 302cid engine is completely assembled , ... except for :
ran into this problem --> new Valve Covers they wanted to use did not fit under Z28 Cross-Ram Manifold
after trying a bunch of different Brands , Chris found Valve Covers that would fit after some minor fixes !
Hopefully get some Car + Engine Pics + Dyno Data soon ???

Larry;

Here's the pics of the 302 Crossram and how I modified the valve covers to fit. The pics should be self-explanatory.

Reproduction (correct) intake:

1P_302_crossram_intake.jpg

Original 1969 Z28 valve covers:

1S_302_crossram_valve_covers.jpg

Original upper valve cover relief cut from the factory:

1U_302_crossram_valve_cover_OEM_relief.jpg

Interference between the intake, valve covers and rocker arms:

1T_302_crossram_vave_cover_interference.jpg

I modified the relief to run almost the length of the upper edge of the valve cover:

1V_302_crossram_valve_cover_relieved.jpg

Completed engine drivers side:

1Y-302_crossram_completed_LF3_42.jpg

Completed engine passenger side:

1W_302_crossram_completed_PS.jpg

Hopefully these help you or your customer somehow.

[maxracesoftware]

VMC ,
awesome great Pictures .... Thanks for Posting !!!

Chris likes to use +0.100" Longer Intake and Exhaust Valves
i forgot to measure the Valve lengths when i Flow tested the Heads
.... so maybe +0.100" longer valves , along with Roller Rockers which are 1.60/1.60 Ratios , instead of 1.5/1.5,
made it very hard to fit or find a Valve Cover that can fit .
Chris is using a Hydraulic Roller in that engine .

Another factor is : they probably want to keep original Z28 302 Valve Covers
exactly like OEM shape , and also those 302 OEM Covers would never clear
+0.100" longer valves , along with Roller Rockers .

They probably also do not want to do anything to the Z28 OEM Cross-Ram Manifold either !

Once i get some Engine Pics , i'll post them